Questions on 3rd person limited POV – information & style

[jgtokyo]

New member here. Greetings to all on the forum.

For my current novel I've settled on the third person limited POV. The story is experienced through her character in all chapters. I'm familiar with the rules of "head hopping" and only inferring the feelings of others through their dialogue and actions toward this protagonist. And indeed only show what they see and hear with their own eyes and ears.

But how do you strike a balance between the narrator's voice (not a character in the novel) and the thoughts of the protagonist?

For example, let's say the main character is a modern young woman in her 20s. She meets someone for the first time and that person resembles a famous singer (Frank Sinatra for argument's sake), there are a few ways to approach it:

1. He looked like Frank Sinatra.
2. He looked like Frank Sinatra, she thought.
3. He looked like a famous singer from way back that her mother loved, but she couldn't remember the name.

2 and 3 are pretty self-explanatory, but it's 1 I wonder about. Does that short sentence inherently imply that she knows (and remembers) who Frank Sinatra is, or is that the TPL narrator offering that for readers? When there's no clear indicator that it's the character's thought ("..., she thought" ) do we assume that it's the character's knowledge, or the narrator offering interspersed information along with the thoughts of the character?

This could even extend to the writing style. Let's say the young modern female protagonist meets a new character and they happen to be overweight.
She probably wouldn't use, or maybe even know, the term "portly" but the TPL narrator would be free to use it in describing the character, correct?
"He was a portly old guy with suspenders holding up his pants."

If I made it clear it was the protagonists thoughts ("..., she thought" "..., she noticed" etc) , it might be more confined to "He was overweight for a lifeguard, she noticed." or "He was grossly obese, she had to admit."

My novel is predominantly with the protagonist's internal thoughts and POV, but how do you balance when you want to "zoom out" and include narrator information and style.

Thank you!

 

[Kent_Jacobs]

'He looked like Frank Sinatra' is perfectly acceptable in 3rd person limited. We can't know and shouldn't know everything about the main character, and all that statement implies is she knows what Frank Sinatra looks like.

The balance between what she can know for certain and doesn't know at all is a difficult one and great care has to be taken. This is when words like 'seemed' or 'appeared' or 'as if' or 'probably' come into their own. Normally you'd cut them but there are times when your protag has to make an assumption, and that's the time reaching for 'thought' becomes a problem.

EDIT: Note that there's a difference between what the protag is thinking and using 'thought' as a crutch for not knowing.

Correct: I bet he doesn't struggle to get the girls, she thought. (an actual thought)
Incorrect: He looked about 30 years old, she thought. (A cop out)
Correct: He looked about 30 years old. (Limited)

The vocab depends on how articulate you want to make your central character (or POV character for a scene or chapter). If they're well read or well educated then 'portly' wouldn't be a stretch. If they're uneducated and haven't read a book in their life 'portly' would swing the viewpoint to the author, which would be jarring.

He was a handsome man, probably around 30 years old and looked a lot like Frank Sinatra. Susan turned away, sensing her gaze had settled a little too long. Although he seemed comfortable with her scrutiny, she couldn't be certain.

When to zoom out is a difficult one for me to decide too. In general, I'm getting a sense that 'broad strokes' are when I zoom out most. In the end I've gone for a cop out. A kind of bastard son of Limited and Author, but I do make sure the vocab is fitting for my protag, even if I decide to grab the pen from their hand.

Me/Simone (largely speaking)

Standing beside her, an obese mother and her sickly-looking son. The young boy wriggled for the umpteenth time; his thin wrist clasped in his mother’s strong hand. She looked shrink-wrapped into her grey, elasticated slacks and peach blouse, the excess fat bulging beneath her armpits and at her waist. Sat atop this lump, a grim, bulldoggish face. Liberally powdered in an effort to conceal her blood pressure, Simone assumed. Several rough tugs on her ward seemed to confirm it.​

 

[Banespawn]

What @Kent_Jacobs said.

You don't need thought tags to indicate that the character thought something. Once you establish who the POV character is, then the reader will assume that every thought belongs to that character, and every bit of information is coming from that character.

In 3rd limited, the narrator is invisible. The narrator doesn't intrude on the story and can't give thoughts or information. Everything must come from the POV character. So if the POV character doesn't know it, the reader doesn't know it.

You can, however, use multiple POV characters (only 1 per scene, though). That is a great way to give the reader information that the protagonist doesn't have. Character A doesn't know that character B plans to betray him. You can add subtle hints in character A's POV that foreshadow the betrayal and then both character A and the reader learn of the betrayal when it happens. Or you can show character B's POV and reveal that he plans to betray character A. The former option makes the betrayal more impactful, while the latter creates suspense leading up to it. It's all about how you want to engage the reader.

 

[jgtokyo]

What @Kent_Jacobs said.

You don't need thought tags to indicate that the character thought something. Once you establish who the POV character is, then the reader will assume that every thought belongs to that character, and every bit of information is coming from that character.

In 3rd limited, the narrator is invisible. The narrator doesn't intrude on the story and can't give thoughts or information. Everything must come from the POV character. So if the POV character doesn't know it, the reader doesn't know it.

You can, however, use multiple POV characters (only 1 per scene, though). That is a great way to give the reader information that the protagonist doesn't have. Character A doesn't know that character B plans to betray him. You can add subtle hints in character A's POV that foreshadow the betrayal and then both character A and the reader learn of the betrayal when it happens. Or you can show character B's POV and reveal that he plans to betray character A. The former option makes the betrayal more impactful, while the latter creates suspense leading up to it. It's all about how you want to engage the reader.

Thanks for the quick reply.
I understand from this advice, and advice on another forum I posted this to, that whatever and however I write it, it comes from the protagonist's pool of knowledge. Hence the need for filtering out all the unnecessary tags in rewrites.

I also know about TPL POV for multiple characters in separate scenes or chapters, although this novel is all with one character. One thing I noticed way back when I was reading all of James Ellroy's books and not even considering narrative voice as a writer, was when he'd switch to a female character's POV it still felt very male...

 

[jgtokyo]

'He looked like Frank Sinatra' is perfectly acceptable in 3rd person limited. We can't know and shouldn't know everything about the main character, and all that statement implies is she knows what Frank Sinatra looks like.

The balance between what she can know for certain and doesn't know at all is a difficult one and great care has to be taken. This is when words like 'seemed' or 'appeared' or 'as if' or 'probably' come into their own. Normally you'd cut them but there are times when your protag has to make an assumption, and that's the time reaching for 'thought' becomes a problem.

EDIT: Note that there's a difference between what the protag is thinking and using 'thought' as a crutch for not knowing.

Correct: I bet he doesn't struggle to get the girls, she thought. (an actual thought)
Incorrect: He looked about 30 years old, she thought. (A cop out)
Correct: He looked about 30 years old. (Limited)

The vocab depends on how articulate you want to make your central character (or POV character for a scene or chapter). If they're well read or well educated then 'portly' wouldn't be a stretch. If they're uneducated and haven't read a book in their life 'portly' would swing the viewpoint to the author, which would be jarring.

He was a handsome man, probably around 30 years old and looked a lot like Frank Sinatra. Susan turned away, sensing her gaze had settled a little too long. Although he seemed comfortable with her scrutiny, she couldn't be certain.

When to zoom out is a difficult one for me to decide too. In general, I'm getting a sense that 'broad strokes' are when I zoom out most. In the end I've gone for a cop out. A kind of bastard son of Limited and Author, but I do make sure the vocab is fitting for my protag, even if I decide to grab the pen from their hand.

Me/Simone (largely speaking)

Standing beside her, an obese mother and her sickly-looking son. The young boy wriggled for the umpteenth time; his thin wrist clasped in his mother’s strong hand. She looked shrink-wrapped into her grey, elasticated slacks and peach blouse, the excess fat bulging beneath her armpits and at her waist. Sat atop this lump, a grim, bulldoggish face. Liberally powdered in an effort to conceal her blood pressure, Simone assumed. Several rough tugs on her ward seemed to confirm it.​

Thank you for the wealth of advice.

The examples I posted weren't from my current novel but I was thinking of my protagonist, who's highly fluent in English but ultimately a non-native speaker.
In writing their dialogue it's not that difficult to be consistent with their level of vocabulary and grammar etc., but how far does that carry over into the non-dialogue narration. i.e. their thoughts.

 

[Kent_Jacobs]

Thank you for the wealth of advice.

The examples I posted weren't from my current novel but I was thinking of my protagonist, who's highly fluent in English but ultimately a non-native speaker.
In writing their dialogue it's not that difficult to be consistent with their level of vocabulary and grammar etc., but how far does that carry over into the non-dialogue narration. i.e. their thoughts.

Indeed. That's why I settled on the mix, opting to 'flavour' the narration with the protag's POV. It isn't easy, man. The simple answer is it can go ALL the way if you want. Everything, from narration to dialogue is framed from the perspective of the protag. EV-ERY THING! This isn't something only beginners or intermediates face either. How many novels have you read in which the main character is a writer? There's a reason for that. If you read Joe Abercrombie or J. G. Ballard, you'll see they're writing in Limited, but both author's styles and voice are still all over it.

 

[jgtokyo]

Indeed. That's why I settled on the mix, opting to 'flavour' the narration with the protag's POV. It isn't easy, man. The simple answer is it can go ALL the way if you want. Everything, from narration to dialogue is framed from the perspective of the protag. EV-ERY THING! This isn't something only beginners or intermediates face either. How many novels have you read in which the main character is a writer? There's a reason for that. If you read Joe Abercrombie or J. G. Ballard, you'll see they're writing in Limited, but both author's styles and voice are still all over it.

My instinct would be to settle on a "mix" (good term). What a balancing act.

To your second point, that was why I mentioned Elloy in my reply to the other member.
The dialogue and narration is masterfully delineated when it comes to depicting the range of low-level criminals, detectives, politicians, up to Hoover himself.
But when it's TPL with female characters, they still feel like Ellroy men in the bodies of women.

 

[Taylor]

Excellent question! And @Kent_Jacobs gave a perfect answer. This post is timely for me as I also have been focusing on the POV of the narrative and how much of the character's personality should shine through.

As Kent says, everything must be seen through the eyes of the protagonist as they "know" it, so if it's how another character is feeling, one must use words like "seemed" or "appeared." But another factor in the informational "mix" is the difference between fact and opinion:

Opinion: He looked like Frank Sinatra.
Fact: He had dark brown hair and olive-toned skin.

And then you can layer in thoughts as they would play out in the protagonist's mind: He looked like a famous singer from way back that her mother loved, but she couldn't remember the name.

To make it even more complicated, there are also perceptions: He looked like Frank Sinatra with a touch of old-fashioned swagger.

There is no correct answer; it's a matter of style. But once you settle on the "mix" or style, it's a good idea to be consistent with the ratio throughout, regardless of which character's POV you are in.

I have been pushing myself to "zoom in" more with perceptions in the narration. For example:

Unlike Jimmy, he appeared well-groomed, with salon-styled sandy blonde shag and perfectly even tan. His baby blue linen jacket matched his eyes.

“Welcome to the team; I’ve heard you’re the best,” A typical response; she sensed flattery which put her guard up. Her role as quality assurance manager required a rational mind not influenced by those seeking her approval."

And in the above, I've also hinted at the personality of the non-POV character, just in terms of how she perceives him.

Fun stuff! ?

 

[Taylor]

But when it's TPL with female characters, they still feel like Ellroy men in the bodies of women.

That is a good observation! I'd think there are two schools of thought. Are you writing the narration to be true to the character, in which case there would be a wide variety of diction based on education, gender, personality, etc? Or are you writing for reader preference and narrating with a similar articulation throughout?

In other words, would the James Ellroy readership want to read a female POV they don't understand?

Again, with the narration, it's a matter of style. As you mention, all of the above characteristics can be portrayed in dialogue, for example, vernacular and accents.

 

[jgtokyo]

That is a good observation! I'd think there are two schools of thought. Are you writing the narration to be true to the character, in which case there would be a wide variety of diction based on education, gender, personality, etc? Or are you writing for reader preference and narrating with a similar articulation throughout?

In other words, would the James Ellroy readership want to read a female POV they don't understand?

Again, with the narration, it's a matter of style. As you mention, all of the above characteristics can be portrayed in dialogue, for example, vernacular and accents.

My instinct would be to write for reader preference, but now with a stricter eye on the "rules" of TPL.
As you've rightly stated, a character's dialogue will encompass the educational/cultural/physiological background.