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Will this change a character's motivation by a lot? (1 Viewer)

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ironpony

Senior Member
I should give a content warning because I am to be talking about some mature subject matter in my story.


CONTENT WARNING


In my story, the main character wants revenge on the woman who raped him. I wrote it so that she drugs him and rapes him vaginally so to speak, by forcing him into herself, if that makes sense. However, a few readers pointed out that they felt that this wasn't enough to give him as much motivation and that she should rape him him in an anal sense instead. I felt that an anal rape might be a little gratuitous though, like I would be overmaking the point. But are the readers correct that it would give the MC a lot more dramatic "oomf" in motivation that he needs perhaps?

Thanks for any opinions and advice on this. I really appreciate it!
 

luckyscars

WF Veterans
I think it probably would be an improvement, yeah.

I don't like anything about the idea, as you know, but in terms of the premise of a man driven blood simple over revenge...if I have to choose between which is more plausible for that: (1) The idea of some woman raping him in a manner that most people, rightly or wrongly, don't consider 'real rape' and may actually find quite sexy or (2) The idea of some woman shoving one or more objects up his ass. I choose the second.

One of the reasons a lot of women feel like men don't really understand the psychological impacts of rape is because men, in general, don't really understand how physically and psychologically painful/brutal being violently penetrated is. It's literally 'an invasion', objectification in its most complete sense. It's an act of power. That is why it's so common in prison. Couple that with societal homophobia. Compared to being sat on -- which regardless of how unwanted it may be cannot cause the same level of hurt -- I feel it's a no-brainer.
 

ironpony

Senior Member
Oh okay. I was trying to put myself in the victims shoes and it seems to me that rape would be rape no matter what kind of rape it was, if done through coitus, or in an anal way. It seems that both are still rape to me, so I didn't see one being worse than the other, in my perceptions, but I can try to look at it that way. In my research male victims still did not like being raped even if it wasn't done with anal though.
 
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Llyralen

Senior Member
If she inserted something into his anus without his consent? That's invasive, a violent act. Possibly very painful.

What kind of revenge is your MC going to extract? Is he going to be violent against her? Ruin her socially? Ruining her socially without ever saying anything about this act would be interesting...

I actually knew a guy who lost some standing in his particular religion because he woke up with a woman who he did not like on top of him. His church which he was a firm believer in preaches chastity before marriage. He talked to his church leader about it and the church leader refused to see it as rape. This was very heartbreaking from my opinion. I do see it as being taken advantage of. I do think sitting on a young man (a virgin) who was saving himself for marriage while he was asleep as pretty close to rape. He had a lot of guilt and his leader wasn't helping or understanding at all. I think he also felt conflicted about how he felt about the girl. On one side hating her and being asked to take more responsibility in the matter. Yeah, it's pretty erotic to talk about actually.... but not fair. Damn not fair, imo. To me it really does seem like his conscious free will was taken from him. Very wrong of her who obviously cared much less about the whole act and who I think just really hoped that he liked her. I don't know. I guess I don't understand her perspective.. I tend to think girls like that are flat-out stupid and I wonder if we don't hold women as accountable as we should. Oh...for some reason I want to keep exploring this.... what I feel towards the girl is my question to myself. Do I think a girl who sat on a guy while he was asleep deserves revenge? What kind of revenge? I think I assumed that the girl was stupid and in a pathetic place in life anyway... so why take revenge? Her life is awful anyway? But why not? Shouldn't there be some laws against what she did? It seems like for sure there should be. I would think that for real she should get fined. She really did some damage to that young man. Within his particular community not quickly waking up and knocking her off pf him was not pardonable, but I'm not so sure that at that age and being a virgin and being sleepy and probably close to climax and all of that. I'm not sure that it would have been even possible right then for him to exercise free will in the way that he usually would have. Anyway.... such an interesting circumstance when I think about it.

It has to do with what you're trying to write, but to me all the questions and nuances in the circumstance that I'm talking about are SO interesting.
 

EternalGreen

Senior Member
I agree that makes more sense, even though both would be serious assaults. You will have to handle the subject matter with care.
 

luckyscars

WF Veterans
Oh okay. I was trying to put myself in the victims shoes and it seems to me that rape would be rape no matter what kind of rape it was, if done through coitus, or in an anal way. It seems that both are still rape to me, so I didn't see one being worse than the other, in my perceptions, but I can try to look at it that way. In my research male victims still did not like being raped even if it wasn't done with anal though.

That's a fundamentally androcentric perspective, driven by a patriarchal agenda ("the price women must pay for being treated equally means we men get to claim their suffering, too") and not biology or observable fact. That both things may be considered rape doesn't make them the same. Certainly not physically. Maybe not psychologically. All else being equal, penetrative rape is almost always going to be worse than non-penetrative rape. The clue is in the word 'penetration'.

If you don't believe me, why not do some of your own research? First, insert a substantially-sized, unlubricated phallic-shaped object up your butthole. Then, compare that sensation to putting your penis in a wet glove and rubbed around a little bit roughly. Neither one is pleasant, sure, but only one of them is likely to be agonizing.
 

ironpony

Senior Member
Oh okay, I thought it wasn't the physical pain and discomfort that made one worse than the other, but the psychological aspect of being taken advantage of and overpowered. I thought that that would carry more weight than which one hurts more physically.
 

Tettsuo

WF Veterans
Drugging him would kill his erection, no? Also, I thought these guys were having a difficult time getting women. Why would a woman go through all the trouble of raping a man that has little to no options according to your story?
 

ironpony

Senior Member
Drugging him would kill his erection, no? Also, I thought these guys were having a difficult time getting women. Why would a woman go through all the trouble of raping a man that has little to no options according to your story?

The group of villains are committing these crimes as a form of revenge and payback for being rejected. There is a female member in the group who is also doing it for payback for being rejected as well. So there are female and male victims of the crimes.

It was suggested to me that she uses drugs like viagra to help get him aroused while drugging him to kidnap him as well, so I could take that suggestion and write it that way. Unless I should make it an anal rape, since it was suggested to me to give the main character stronger motivation?
 

Llyralen

Senior Member
The group of villains are committing these crimes as a form of revenge and payback for being rejected. There is a female member in the group who is also doing it for payback for being rejected as well. So there are female and male victims of the crimes.

It was suggested to me that she uses drugs like viagra to help get him aroused while drugging him to kidnap him as well, so I could take that suggestion and write it that way. Unless I should make it an anal rape, since it was suggested to me to give the main character stronger motivation?

It's like a group of male and female incels... the violent kind? Is that kind of the idea? Physically I'd need a couple of girls, maybe 3 or 4 girls to kidnap a guy in order to carry him... but sometimes logistics like that don't matter in stories. Or nobody cares to bother with thinking about it. Or the girl with an extra guy to help carry the victim.

It's not that hard to get guys erect, in my opinion. You wouldn't need the viagra, I wouldn't think. What would ecstacy do? I don't personally know. But are you trying to do a role reversal kind of? Men drug women in order to make them docile and to knock them out to get away with gratifying sexual pleasure/preying on them sexually, but people who are into making sure the other person is in pain or dominated or afraid would usually not use drugs after the kidnap, I think. People who are into dominance and pain don't usually use drugs. Again, I think it would be easy enough to manually stimulate an erection if you want the guy to be erect. I think it is an interesting idea to just reverse roles but.... I think it's more likely that a girl interested in revenge would maybe initially drug the guy, but then just tie him up, ask for help moving him somewhere....arouse him manually if you need to, and/or do things that were violent. Wow, this is weird to talk about. The subject is making me a bit sick... but I guess it's interesting. I think you have to examine the motivation of the girl. Why is she raping? For revenge you said, but does she want to humiliate, dominate, inflict fear, inflect pain... what? Because you'd have to do specific things to make those things happen since just having sex with him on it's own might actually be a fun pleasurable adventure for him.
 

ironpony

Senior Member
Oh okay. Well since there are other members in the group, they can help her.

But as for revenge like humuliation and domination, I don't really go into a lot of specifics as to what she does. I have to explain how she gets him the erection since readers told me to, but I do not go into much else, because I was advised to leave it up to the imaginiation and don't go into specifics in order avoid coming off as exploitative, if that's a good point?
 

luckyscars

WF Veterans
But as for revenge like humuliation and domination, I don't really go into a lot of specifics as to what she does. I have to explain how she gets him the erection since readers told me to, but I do not go into much else, because I was advised to leave it up to the imaginiation and don't go into specifics in order avoid coming off as exploitative, if that's a good point?


I think when we're doing 'random woman ties up and rapes random man' you kind of have to get specific on the how and why, because it's inherently a fairly far-fetched premise.

Again, I don't want to come across as endorsing really either approach here because I hate the idea. But it's kind of like writing a book about time travel: You have to make it credible because it's a premise that not only is sort of ridiculous but also carries with it a lot of bad assumptions you would want to avoid. Specifically, you need to figure out how it works ("how does this thing that seems sort of physically impossible to do successfully happen here?") and why it needs to be done ("why would she want to do this? What is her motivation?")

If you don't, then you lose suspension of disbelief. In this case you're even worse off than in a time travel story because at least in time travel the reader is probably willing to accept whatever loopholes they can. But here, the average reader (or viewer, since it's a screenplay) is going to be looking for reasons as to why this is silly & you are nothing more than a perverted edgelord wanting to push boundaries a la A Serbian Film

Actually, maybe you should watch "A Serbian Film". I don't usually recommend it, terribly disgusting movie, but it's undoubtedly well made and an original concept and deals with this line of subject matter in an effective way: Nobody who watches that movie forgets it because it seems real and the rapist, as horrendous as he is, is unquestionably sympathetic. If you're going to do rape along these lines, A Serbian Film is what you should aim for, because anything less is just a half measure.

As we have discussed in probably twenty threads, you do not have a motivation for this woman. Not one that makes a jot of sense. You don't have a motivation, you don't have a desire, you have nothing but a rough idea of a sociopathic headcase and the crime market is saturated in terms of those.
 

ironpony

Senior Member
I think when we're doing 'random woman ties up and rapes random man' you kind of have to get specific on the how and why, because it's inherently a fairly far-fetched premise.

Again, I don't want to come across as endorsing really either approach here because I hate the idea. But it's kind of like writing a book about time travel: You have to make it credible because it's a premise that not only is sort of ridiculous but also carries with it a lot of bad assumptions you would want to avoid. Specifically, you need to figure out how it works ("how does this thing that seems sort of physically impossible to do successfully happen here?") and why it needs to be done ("why would she want to do this? What is her motivation?")

If you don't, then you lose suspension of disbelief. In this case you're even worse off than in a time travel story because at least in time travel the reader is probably willing to accept whatever loopholes they can. But here, the average reader (or viewer, since it's a screenplay) is going to be looking for reasons as to why this is silly & you are nothing more than a perverted edgelord wanting to push boundaries a la A Serbian Film

Actually, maybe you should watch "A Serbian Film". I don't usually recommend it, terribly disgusting movie, but it's undoubtedly well made and an original concept and deals with this line of subject matter in an effective way: Nobody who watches that movie forgets it because it seems real and the rapist, as horrendous as he is, is unquestionably sympathetic. If you're going to do rape along these lines, A Serbian Film is what you should aim for, because anything less is just a half measure.

As we have discussed in probably twenty threads, you do not have a motivation for this woman. Not one that makes a jot of sense. You don't have a motivation, you don't have a desire, you have nothing but a rough idea of a sociopathic headcase and the crime market is saturated in terms of those.

Oh okay thanks. Well, the motivation I had for her I was told by others was the best one. I did some research and asked some others for additional motivation, but no one seemed to be able to come up with one that they thought was better. So I am not sure what other motivation to give her if the original doesn't work but I can keep researching and keep asking.

I didn't really think I was pushing boundaries though, because this kind of content has been done before in other movies, and it's even been done in Law and Order: SVU, which is a primetime TV show. So I didn't think I was going to extremes. You say I shouldn't half ass it, but you also say that going to extremes would make me come off as a perverted edgelord. But I don't think that's good either, is it? But since this kind of subject matter has been done for TV shows, I didn't think it was of the extreme.

I haven't seen A Serbian Film but I feel that it is probably more edge than mine. But there also have been movies that have had a character getting revenge for a rape before such as Ms. 45, Hard Candy, or Revenge (2017 one). So I didn't think I was doing something hugely boundary pushing, unless a lot of people perhaps haven't seen movies like this and are unfamiliar?
 
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vranger

Staff member
Supervisor
I didn't really think I was pushing boundaries though, because this kind of content has been done before in other movies, and it's even been done in Law and Order: SVU, which is a primetime TV show.

Here's a problem. If you're derivative of established pros in the screenwriting biz, you're doomed. They can copy themselves better than you ever can. Everything I've seen you describe about your plot reminds me too much of the movie Cobra, which was wretched. You need to get out from under that. Consider this thing experience and try something fresh.

Here's the best evidence of that. You've been trying to make this thing fresh for a LONG time, and it's not happening. You can't figure it out because you can't do ANYTHING new in this genre. It's all been done.

But there also have been movies that have had a character getting revenge for a rape before such as Ms. 45, Hard Candy, or Revenge (2017 one).

Your list is woefully incomplete. Rape revenge exploitation movies were ridiculously overproduced in the 60s and 70s, and damned few of them went mainstream. Those that did had to attach an Eastwood or Bronson. You're in a narrow, cliched, outdated niche with few takers (due to the 50 year old glut), and a slice of the market composed of people I don't want to know personally.
 

ironpony

Senior Member
Oh okay, but I dont' think that every movie that has a group of rapists, should be compared to Cobra, especially since in Cobra, the villains didn't even commit the same type of crimes.
 

vranger

Staff member
Supervisor
Oh okay, but I dont' think that every movie that has a group of rapists, should be compared to Cobra, especially since in Cobra, the villains didn't even commit the same type of crimes.

There is a REALLY GOOD reason that "every movie" doesn't have a group of rapists. For the most part, it's regarded as exploitive trash. You already told us that you've received that advice, so this should come as no shock.

You're also hampered by the (often helpful) guideline, "Write what you know". The volume of research questions and doubts about the subject you post suggest you know squat about your subject. Find something you know and take it on. Make it work. Then you can spread out.
 

ironpony

Senior Member
Oh okay, well I can do research into it if that's better, and perhaps interview psychologists on the subject if that's better, to get better motivations for the villains.

But I did take people's advice on how to make it not exploitative though, so I think I improved on that part. I just don't see why the subject of rape is off limits to write about compared to other crimes. There are stories about murderers, bobbers, etc. So I just don't see rape as a crime that is off limits to write about for a story, especially when others have done it.
 
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