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The Bible (1 Viewer)

LensmanZ313

Senior Member
Kane said:
.Islam arose 600-700 years after the birth of Christ, which was basically a denial of Christ's divinity.

Jews also deny the divinity of Yeshua/Jesus. And, take a gander at what Moses and some of his boys did to tribes and nations who worshipped other gods. They were wiped out . . . .
 

Kane

Senior Member
Yes, the Jews denied the divinity of Christ, at least some of them did, they had him crucified. That is where they split, but in reality, Christianity is the fulfillment of true Judaism. As for Moses and his "boys" wiping out other tribes, yes, they did this. It wasn't the same world back then, the religious "tolerance" we have today didn't always exist as such. When the Hebrews left Egypt they had nowhere to go, so they had to fight for a place of their own. Eventually the Jews were scattered because they continually defied God. Had they not, they would have remained strong and sovereign.

Now, you claimed that Zaroastrianism was older than the Hebrew faith, but this is not true. It wasn't started by a guy named Zaroaster, it was founded by a "prophet" named Zarathustra, who lived in either 600 BCE or 1400 BCE, depending on who you ask. He couldn't have predated the Hebrews either way.

Akhenaten or Amenhotep couldn't have possibly predated the Hebrew faith because he lived in the 1300's BCE. In fact, some scholars hypothesize that HE was inspired by Joseph or Moses. Akhenaten's religion did center on one god, but his major emphasis was on the Aten's visibility, tangibility, and undeniable realness. Akhenaten placed no emphasis, therefore, on faith. So in that manner it couldn't have come from the Hebrews. There is also evidence to suggest that he did so for political reasons, to thwart the rise of the god Amen, whose priests had become wealthier than the Pharaoh. Let's also not forget that Akhenaten was a descendent of a Hebrew tribe, and couldn't have possibly predated teh Hebrew religion.
 

LensmanZ313

Senior Member
Zoroaster and Zarathustra are the same person.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm

Quotation:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." Mary Boyce.

Introduction:
Zoroastrianism is a small religion with about 140,000 members. Yet its importance to humanity is much greater than its current numbers might suggest, because:

Their theology has had a great impact on Judaism, Christianity and other later religions, in the beliefs surrounding God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, savior, resurrection, final judgment, etc.
It is one of the oldest religions still in existence,
It may have been the first monotheistic religion.

The religion was founded by Zarathushtra (Zoroaster in Greek; Zarthosht in India and Persia). Conservative Zoroastrians assign a date of 6000 BCE to the founding of the religion; other followers estimate 600 BCE. Historians and religious scholars generally date his life sometime between 1500 and 1000 BCE on the basis of his style of writing.

He lived in Persia, modern day Iran. Legends say that his birth was predicted and that attempts were made by the forces of evil to kill him as a child. He preached a monotheism in a land which followed an aboriginal polytheistic religion. He was attacked for his teaching, but finally won the support of the king. Zoroastrianism became the state religion of various Persian empires, until the 7th Century CE.

When Arabs, followers of Islam, invaded Persia in 650 CE, a small number of Zoroastrians fled to India where most are concentrated today. Those who remained behind have survived centuries of persecution, systematic slaughter, forced conversion, heavy taxes, etc. They now number only about 18,000 and reside chiefly in Yazd, Kernan and Tehran in what is now Iran. The 1991 census counted 3,190 Zoroastrians in Canada. The actual number is believed to be much higher.

Zorastrian Sacred Text:
The Zorastrian holy book is called the Avesta. This includes the original words of their founder Zarathushtra, preserved in a series of five hymns, called the Gathas. The latter represent the core text of the religion. The Gathas are abstract sacred poetry, directed towards the worship of the One God, understanding of righteousness and cosmic order, promotion of social justice and individual choice between good and evil. The Gathas have a general and even universal vision.

At some later date (most scholars say many centuries later), the remaining parts of the Avestas were written. These deal with laws of ritual and practice, with the traditions of the faith. The Zoroastrian community is sharply divided between those who would follow mostly (or exclusively) the teachings of the original Gathas, and those who believe that the later traditions are important and equally divinely inspired.

Zoroastrian Beliefs:
Beliefs include:

A single god Ahura Mazda who is supreme. Communication between Himself and humans is by a number of Attributes, called Amesha Spentas or Bounteous Immortals. Within the Gathas, the original Zoroastrian sacred text, these Immortals are sometimes described as concepts, and are sometimes personified.
One school of thought promotes a cosmic dualism between: An all powerful God Ahura Mazda who is the only deity worthy of being worshipped, and
An evil spirit of violence and death, Angra Mainyu, who opposes Ahura Mazda.

The resulting cosmic conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity who is required to choose which to follow. Evil, and the Spirit of Evil, will be completely destroyed at the end of time. Dualism will come to an end and Goodness will be all in all.

Another school of thought perceives the battle between Good and Evil as an ethical dualism, set within the human consciousness.
Asha is a form of righteous, all encompassing, natural law.
Legends, which are probably not those of Zarathushtra's original teachings are: After death, the urvan (soul) is allowed three days to meditate on his/her past life. The soul is then judged by a troika Mithra, Sraosha and Rashnu. If the good thoughts, words and deeds outweigh the bad, then the soul is taken into heaven. Otherwise, the soul is led to hell.
The universe will go through three eras: creation;
the present world where good and evil are mixed. People's good works are seen as gradually transforming the world towards its heavenly ideal;
and a final state after this renovation when good and evil will be separated.

Eventually, everything will be purified. Even the occupants of hell will be released.

A Saoshyant (savior) will be born of a virgin, but of the lineage of the Prophet Zoroaster who will raise the dead and judge everyone in a final judgment.

Zoroastrian Practices:
Their worship includes prayers and symbolic ceremonies.
The rituals are conducted before a sacred fire. Some believe that they actually worship fire. This is not true. They regard fire as a symbol of their God.
Zoroastrians do not generally accept converts. One has to be born into the religion. This belief is disputed by some members.
The traditional wing of Zoroastrianism discourages and does not recognize inter-faith marriages. More details.
Members are dedicated to a three-fold path, as shown in their motto: "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds."

References:
Farhand Mehr, "The Zoroastrian Tradition", Element Books, (1991)
Duchesne-Guilemin (translated by Henning), "Wisdom of the East" C.E. Tuttle (1992)
Avesta -- Zoroastrian Archives is an extensive resource of Zoroastrian information at: http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html
The Stanford University Zoroastrian Group maintains a home page with a large collection of links at: http://www.mit.edu/afs/athena/
The Zoroastrian Association of Shiraz promotes the Zoroastrian religion, teachings and culture to the world at: http://shiraz.freeservers.com/
The Ancient Iranian Cultural & Religious Research & Development Center maintains a Canadian web site to promote the teachings of Zarathushtra. See: http://www.ancientiran.com
Dinyar's Zoroastrian Web Page is at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/3417/
Zoroastrian Home Page is part of the ReligionQuest.com home page. See: http://www.religionquest.com/Zoroastrian_home.htm
Twilit Grotto has an overview of the Avesta language, a Zoroastrian wedding ceremony, Zoroastrian scriptures and much more at: http://www.avesta.org/
The Zoroastrianism Page has information on the Zoroastrian calendar, festivals and much more at: http://coulomb.ecn.purdue.edu/~bulsara/ZOROASTRIAN/

I didn't want to imply that the Hebrews were predated--what I had meant to say was at the time, the Hebrews were a pagan, polytheistic society at the time . . . .
 

Kane

Senior Member
Zoroaster and Zarathustra are the same person

heheh, ok, my bad... not much of a linguist.

The religion was founded by Zarathushtra (Zoroaster in Greek; Zarthosht in India and Persia). Conservative Zoroastrians assign a date of 6000 BCE to the founding of the religion; other followers estimate 600 BCE. Historians and religious scholars generally date his life sometime between 1500 and 1000 BCE on the basis of his style of writing.

This is basically a repeat of what I said, plus the unsubstantiated claim of originating in 6000 BCE. His conservative followers assign a date of 6000 BCE, but if I were to make a similar claim about one of my statements you would deny it quickly for lack of evidence. Historians and religious scholars date his life between 1500 and 1000 BCE, if this is the case, he couldn't have possibly founded teh religion in 6000 BCE now could he?

And as for your other claims?
 

LensmanZ313

Senior Member
I made an edit to that post, Kane. There are some theories that the Hebrews were polytheistic, being influenced heavily by the Canaanites . . . .
 

Kane

Senior Member
There is evidence to support that claim in the Bible. As Moses is leading the Hebrews through the desert, there are more than one instances where he finds them worshiping idols and other Gods. I believe this is one of Biblical reasons that God eventually let the Israelites be scattered among nations.
 

Achilles

Senior Member
Allow me to present another point that could be of interest.

The Bible is chock full of prophecy. Just take a look at Daniel, Revelation, Isaiah, or Jeremiah and you will see so. I feel that the biggest proof of the Bible's validity is the accuracy of these prophetic writings. From all the many foretellings of the future that are contained within its pages, not a single one has proven false. This is quite a claim I'm making, but take a look. Arguably no other book has ever made this claim.

Just something to think about.
 

Achilles

Senior Member
In the book of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of an image made up of many different metals. You are probably familiar with it. The head of gold is ancient Babylon, the chest of silver is Greece, the thighs of bronze were Medo-Persia, the legs of iron were Rome. This provides a complete timeline of the world dynasties from then until now, which is represented in the feet of iron and clay mixed.

I believe that Isaiah is the one that foretells the coming of Jesus as "a lamb to the slaughter." He also states some of the trial that Jesus would have to go through; very accurate to the actual events as recorded in the gospels.

Jesus talks about the signs of the end in Matthew 24 (I think thats right). He includes the moon turning to blood, stars "falling" from heaven, and a day of darkness. Each of these events happened just as foretold.

This stuff is just off the top of my head and I may be able to find much more if I looked. I'm lazy right now :D . If you want proof I think I could scrounge up something from Google. I don't claim to be any kind of Bible scholar by any measure, but this is what I believe. Much of it is left up to interpretation, and you are free to believe whatever you want. I'm just sharing what I know.

~Achilles
 

Achilles

Senior Member
This is where Revelation talks about the earthquake, dark day, and the moon turning to blood. Revelation 6:12: "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood."

It is used in context of times of the end--another angel is opening another seal. I believe these to be signs of the end of time.

http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm360441.html
http://www.goatview.com/may19darkness1790.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_earthquake

The earthquake mentioned is thought to be the Lisbon Earthquake on November 1, 1755. The other two happened on the same day (May 19, 1780)--Darkness during the day, and then the moon rose blood-red. Just some stuff to think about.
 
1

17804

this may be off topic but i saw a program on the history chanel it was on the Bible Code any one ever see it?,it talked about how there was supposed to be hidden prophecy in the bible's text,for example the world is supposed to be hit by a comet in 2012
 

Kane

Senior Member
17804 said:
this may be off topic but i saw a program on the history chanel it was on the Bible Code any one ever see it?,it talked about how there was supposed to be hidden prophecy in the bible's text,for example the world is supposed to be hit by a comet in 2012

I think that's the same one I saw. It was pretty interesting. The scientists were split as to whether it was intentional or not, though, which kind of sucked.
 

LensmanZ313

Senior Member
Sorry. The Bible Code is a hoax. Fraud. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Code). Here's a quote:

The primary method by which purportedly meaningful messages are extracted is the Equidistant Letter Sequence (ELS). To obtain an ELS from a text, choose a starting point (any letter) and a skip (a number, possibly negative). Then, beginning at the starting point, select letters from the text at equal spacing as given by the skip. For example, the bold letters in this sentence form an ELS for the word SAFEST. (The skip is -4. Spaces and punctuation are ignored.)

Often more than one ELS related to some topic can be displayed simultaneously in an ELS letter array. This is produced by writing out the text in a regular grid, with exactly the same number of letters in each line, then cutting out a rectangle. In the example below, we show part of the King James edition of Genesis (26:5–10) with 33 letters per line. ELSs for BIBLE and CODE are shown. Normally only a smaller rectangle would be displayed, such as the rectangle drawn in the figure. In that case there would be letters missing between adjacent lines in the picture, but it is essential that the number of missing letters be the same for each pair of adjacent lines.

And later . . . .

The primary objection advanced against Bible codes of the Drosnin variety is that similar patterns can be found in books other than the Bible. Although the probability of an ELS in a random place being a meaningful word is low, there are so many possible starting points and skips that many such words are expected to appear. Responding to an explicit challenge from Drosnin, who claimed that only the Bible could yield ELS, Australian mathematician Brendan McKay found many ELS letter arrays in Moby Dick that contain ELSs related to modern events. Other people, such as US physicist Dave Thomas, found other examples in many texts. In addition, Drosnin had used the flexibility of Hebrew orthography to his advantage, freely mixing classic (no vowels, Y and W strictly consonant) and modern (Y and W used to indicate i and u vowels) modes, as well as variances in spelling of K and T, to wrench out the desired meaning. In his television series John Safran vs God, Australian television personality John Safran worked with McCay to look for evidence of the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York in the lyrics of Vanilla Ice's repertoire.

I'll check out the Bad Astronomy boards . . . but many real scientists--not those with degrees from degree mills--scoff at the "2012 predictions" and the comet stories.
 

Achilles

Senior Member
LensmanZ313 said:
Australian mathematician Brendan McKay found many ELS letter arrays in Moby Dick that contain ELSs related to modern events.
Exactly. If people take apart the Bible in mathmatical portions intending to find some sort of code, they are bound to do so. Any books can contain some freak of nature that people think is prophecy. The Bible Code is just a normal occurence.
 

ooghost1oo

Senior Member
Leave it to a post involving religion to spawn 5 pages of opinions. Make the religious defend the bible and give them a chance to gently nudge conversion into the picture, and make the atheists feel they have to debunk its validity.

Looking at the bible objectively, as a piece of fiction, I've never been able to read through the whole thing. It's very thick, and mostly boring.

"This bible was placed here by a Gideon."
When? I've been here all day.... what are these people, ninjas?
Where are they from, Gidea?

I'm gonna catch me a gideon....

"hi ... yes ... I don't seem to have a bible in my room...."

(Bill Hicks)


Oh, btw. This month (August 2005), Mars will be passing VERY close to Earth (because of Jupiter's gravitational pull), the closest it has been in 5000 years. Its closest point will be at 12:30am on August 27th (not sure which time zone that is), and Mars will be as clear and as large as a full moon. This won't happen again until 2287. FYI.

Perhaps this is the moon turning to blood! ... the end of the world is nigh!! ;)
 

ooghost1oo

Senior Member
I read the link. Bummer. That's too bad.

I thought it sounded a little unreasonable (as big as the moon), but who knows? It could have been some effect of light refraction or something.

Just passing on the word. Too bad it's a hoax.
 

journyman161

Senior Member
Jesus, I don't know why the Hell anyone would want god-forsaken quotes, even if it was a baptism of fire, because you're likely to be nailed to the cross if you do! Of course, you could pulll a pilate & rub your hands of any sacrificial omens & quote a few proverbs or sing a psalm while you wait for your personal garden of eden to arrive like some second coming. You don't have a prayer of avoiding the demons that come. You'd need the wisdom of solomon to carry your cross up that hill.
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
 
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