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Should you have to stand? (1 Viewer)

zeeby

Senior Member
First off, I haven't come by a single anarchist in this thread, which surprises me. Yeah I am 100% against anarchy, and I think it's just a fashion, but anyways, the people here know more about government to be outright anarchists, unless I'm totally wrong here. Secondly, it's so clique to right about America being facsist, and if somebody could explain that further, it'd be appreciated.
 
J

John Mirra

zeeby said:
Secondly, it's so clique to right about America being facsist, and if somebody could explain that further, it'd be appreciated.
Much like it's a cliche for loony Muslims to be "Islamo-fascists", and perhaps for the very same reasons. The reason people say our government has become an Italian political party is because they can get away with it, banking on stupidity. If people said the Republicans, or the terrorists, were Nazis most would wail about how it undermines the tragedy of the Holocaust, whereas calling them Facists generally incurs "Grr, those... uh... Fascists, Fascists... hmm, sounds like 'eyelashes'... something to do with WWII bad guys... moustaches... hmmm... damn fucking Fascists!"

In short, people can throw around the word Fascist because it won't offend too many people (as "Nazi" would), sound stupid (as "Japanese-Imperialist" would), worn (as "Communist" damn well does), or obscure (as "Falangist" would), and like all the aforesaid terms it does invoke feelings of old American triumph over adversity and evil.

While I do understand that language evolves a little eugenics couldn't hurt with terms like this. I simply have difficulty connecting Mussolini and the axe within the bundle to George Bush or Osama bin Laden. The fact is that no-one gives a damn; I've been cursed with hearing Communists called Fascists, for Godssake.
 

Curse

Senior Member
lol ok ok guys no killing echother over the insanity that is past and present governemt. The truth is it will never be perfect because perfection is a myth. Now i will say i support our troops but i dont support the war, i support people risking their lives for a greater good even if it was build on wrong reasons. So let agree to disgree as my 4 year old cousin would say, because everyone deserves a view and an opinion on everything. And freedom of speech is something we do possess.
 

Knightskye

Senior Member
If you're not standing because you don't want to, okay. If you're not standing because you're trying to attract attention: "Hey, f*** this, I'm not standing!" Go sit in the hallway while the rest of your class is standing. It's a public building, they can make rules and enforce them. Do you walk into class a half-hour late and expect not to get into trouble? Probably not. But people would rather complain about two words they don't even recite, or being forced to pledge their allegance, than complain that school starts too early, or that recess should be available in middle and high school.
 

Curse

Senior Member
...Oh god *wails head on table* Listen I am not some juvi here, I simply say that my right says I do not have to stand for the pledge because I don’t believe in it. I am not rebelling against the school or plotting any sort of world domination what so ever (yet) but my point is. The reason the pledge stands for I don’t like; as a free human being because of my government I am allowed to sit. And no offence to the person above me, but don’t talk to me like I am stupid or that you understand anything. Because you are not a 16-year-old girl in the year 2007 are you? No didn’t think so, I have my friends and I have my family. I pissed off the teacher that decided she wanted to fight me on this and won but the principal was behind me all the way. I understand the flag and what it means I understand why it is there and how it came about. But the foundation it was made is has crumbled and no one cares enough to cement it back together. If you want to lecture me on how my 16 year old girl self will come to learn then please don’t, because I already know
 

Raging_Hopeful

Senior Member
Oy. Well yes America has it much better than other countries but the vast majority don't appreciate it and we waste a good amount of potential by indulging egotistical patriotism. Yes, our penis is bigger than yours. AND it's red white and blue!

As for the fascist remark, I apologize. I don't really think it's fascist and was speaking more out of sarcasm than actual intelligence. However, just because I'm from a "younger" generation, doesn't necessarily condemn me to ignorance. I'm well aware that we are fortunate to have the rights that we do but I am also not at peace with the hypocrisy and power games America has played through the ages. Maybe that speaks to politics everywhere and I'm not trying to get into American/political bashing, but the whole "you're young and don't understand" bull is just a load of bunk.

Consider that we young'uns might have something important to say.
 

zeeby

Senior Member
Ok so the sum of it is, we all wish that we could reach perfection, but we also realize that we will never reach that point. We're all angry at the ambitious for ruining the party, so we shit on them by not saying their stupid pledge. We live in a country that gains it's riches by shitting on other people's livelyhoods, so in a way, it is a chain of one group shitting on another. I think its funny that everyone in this thread is babbeling about hypocrisy (and i see it too guys don't worry) when they're using computers that we could purchase because we shit on others to gain the necassary capitol. We complain about the government that brings others down to raise itself up, yet we're right alongside them for the ride. I'm not saying "if you don't like this country, than ye can geeeeeeeeeet out" all i'm saying is, everyone here, including Hodge, (yes you), shoudld take a good hard look at their ideals, and examine just how closely we obey them.
 
The people that feel everyone MUST stand for the pledge are the same people that believe burning the flag should be marked as treason.

These are people that have no concept of true freedom. They don't even understand what soldiers died to protect.

In fact they dislike any form of freedom that differs from their random morals. They prefer conformity and a blind patriotism that has no real meaning. And it is uniquely American.

The pledge is strictly illegal. Separation of church and state. The 'under God' portion of the pledge is an insult to all agnostics, atheists and differing religions.

It's the same with our money. Having 'In God We Trust' on our bills is not legal.

The only reason these traditions continue is because the people who rule on the lawsuits brought forth happen to believe in God. It's selfish.

Imagine if The Pledge included the words 'One nation, there is no God...' or our money stated 'There is No God.' There would be outrage. And all these pseudo-Patriots and champions of freedom would scream for change immediately.

Freedom depends on the hands that hold the guns and gavels.
 
Lot's of replies here. It's a tricky subject. Please allow me put in my two cents:

We are not living in a communistic country, with a dictator casting a shadow of fear over its people. In fact, America stands for the exact opposite. It's ludicrous to think we can be punished for not bowing down to our country. Why should anyone be forced to act in a manner contradictory to the way they really feel?

Perhaps long ago I would have willingly pledged my allegiance--pledged to a country that was honorable and righteous (at least a hell of a lot more than it is now). But in recent years, I am embarrassed by the country I live in. I'm ashamed to not only be American, but Human! I know that is dramatic, but I want to make myself perfectly clear--I will never bow down and pledge to a society that kills...murders...lies.

I have strong feelings about this...can you tell?

:)
 

Curse

Senior Member
Oy vay *smacks hand on forhead*
All of your points are correctly stated and backed up with your personal thoughts and feelings. The truth is the supreme court ruled that we DON'T have to stand. And anyone who wants to can and anyone who does not want to does no have to. This is america and no matter how corrupt our government may be we at least have some guild lines.

And i thank you all for applying your thoughts because it is an interesting argument and an almost fight worthy topic. But freedom says you may do what you like, and my US history and Gov't teacher who tried to have me in dention for not standing can preferably kiss my butt.
 

I Idiom

Senior Member
Honestly, I hope I never met most of you people in my life. If you cannot even bother to respect the country you live in, and what others have done for you to have this right of choice, then you've learned nothing. Rather then wasting time on making a point (if you can call it that) by disrupting your class, maybe you should be learning in it.

America and her ideals stand taller and broader then whatever you happen to be disagree with at any given point in history. Children today have no clue about their country, and would rather make some asinine/trendy point of sticking it to the man then learning about her.

It sickens me...
 

Hodge

pliable
Senior Member
Apparently you have no clue about our country, either, or you'd think to take off those rose colored glasses.
 

Curse

Senior Member
All right now that was truly uncalled for. How dare you. We are people with voices and opinions. And what is America but based on the ideas of freedom by a select few who believed in it. It is BECAUSE of America that we are allowed to voice our thoughts and it is because of our government that we are able to fight against it. If something is wrong you change it. Thomas Jefferson believed that if our government was corrupt or had flaws you should over throw it and make change.

We are not staring a riot or a rebellion. We are proving that we as people who have power in our government are allowed our civil rights. You know those first 10 ones?
But I have no knowledge of our country what so ever. Oh pity me and my 16-year-old self for not knowing anything about anything. We all have ears and we all have eyes. How DARE you. Maybe it is you who is blind to the flaws of our government and maybe it is YOU who knows nothing. Because as far as I can see, all of these people are more knowledgeable and intellectual than you ever would be
And i will not take your slander here, so shape up or ship out Idiom.
 

I Idiom

Senior Member
Curse said:
All right now that was truly uncalled for. How dare you. We are people with voices and opinions. And what is America but based on the ideas of freedom by a select few who believed in it. It is BECAUSE of America that we are allowed to voice our thoughts and it is because of our government that we are able to fight against it. If something is wrong you change it. Thomas Jefferson believed that if our government was corrupt or had flaws you should over throw it and make change.

We are not staring a riot or a rebellion. We are proving that we as people who have power in our government are allowed our civil rights. You know those first 10 ones?
But I have no knowledge of our country what so ever. Oh pity me and my 16-year-old self for not knowing anything about anything. We all have ears and we all have eyes. How DARE you. Maybe it is you who is blind to the flaws of our government and maybe it is YOU who knows nothing. Because as far as I can see, all of these people are more knowledgeable and intellectual than you ever would be
And i will not take your slander here, so shape up or ship out Idiom.
Thank you for proving my point several times in your post. You don't know anything about your country. You keep saying how dare, I how dare I... how dare I what? Speak my opinion that you seem to be waving around like some righteous banner on your tiny bragade? You can like or dislike the government, I don't care what you do. However, like I said (which you apparently missed) America stands for those ideals that you oh-so apparently cling to, and not what her climent is at any given time.

You do get the idea, right? Ideals stand for something more then the moment? By respecting your flag, your country and her history, you respect what she stands for -- regardless of what you happen to disagree with by any administration/person. You want to uphold your rights and beat them on your pocket-size war-drum, screaming about your independence, but refuse to respect the very place that gives you the ability to do so? You refuse to respect your fore-fathers who gave you the oh-so American right of decent?

How dare I? How dare YOU do something so utterly ignorant.

Shape up or ship out,huh? Get a grip...
 
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