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Religion... pro/anti? I can't find God. (1 Viewer)

thedreamweaver

Senior Member
It’s really late; even now I see the digital onscreen clock creep with its sly digits towards midnight. Yet I can’t sleep and somehow I don’t seem to be able to do anything but think and write – despite the fact that the capacity of my thinking and writing is painfully slim.

I feel sad and I don’t know why; desperate for something which I can’t quite hone out; sobbing inside for something lacking but which I know I’ll never find. How could I, after all, when I can’t even pinpoint exactly what it is?

On the surface I’m bubbly and carefree, disregarding any kind of problems with an optimistic, slightly disapproved flourish. But inside I’m crying out for – for what? I can’t tell, and perhaps I’m exaggerating but I do feel there is something vital, something crucial, something missing from my life. Almost as if I’m pursuing something beautiful and perfect, that will complete my life, but yet – it eludes me, merely because I don’t really know its own nature.

Do you know what I really wish? I wish I could find God. I wish there was a God, because for some reason lately I’ve really felt the need for one. That, of course, in typical Freudian way, explains it all. Because I’ve wanted a God to exist recently, doubts begin to form in my mind about my own deep-rooted atheism. It’s pure selfishness; I tell myself, since I’m only fabricating these inclinations to suit my feeling and ease my mood. Yet reading the above paragraph, I know what a religious person would direct me to do: to find God.

I wish I could find God. I wish I could find solace in religion; pray, and convince myself that everything will turn out all right (or that even if it didn’t, there would be a greater purpose for it). But I can’t, I really can’t believe. I hope with everything in me that there is something else – something more – because if there isn’t, life is the most overrated and yet futile activity on earth. Looking at it this way, it is wholly depressing. There is no getting away from it. No matter what we do on earth – whether we are scholars or tramps, old men or babies – we end up in the same unconscious eternity, the same infinite nothingness. Religion tells us that death is not necessarily an end, but merely the end of a single phase. Science, ever contrary to these Sunday school, comforting views, tells us that death is just a blunt finish-line in a race that nobody wins.

That reminds me of a Paul Simon lyric….”Laugh about it; shout about it… when you’ve got to choose – every way you look at it, you lose…”

In a way that’s kind of relevant to life as a whole: whether you laugh in life, shout or perhaps even cry, whether you choose religion or science, belief or non-belief – every way you look at it, you lose in the end. Nobody’s ultimately a winner. Unless of course, Karl Marx was wrong when he declared religion ‘the opiate of the masses”.

 

JoannaMac

Senior Member
I sometimes wish there was a god too. I consider myself an aethiest, but when I feel particularly shitty or want something very badly, I sometimes find myself looking upwards and asking for help. But if I actually think about what a god is and does, then just I feel angry. With all that goes on in the world, how can God let it all happen? What is the point of having a god if he/she/it is omnipotent? I understand the concept of 'free will' and all that, but if we're all God's children as the bible says, then how is he/she in any way a good parent when a few of his/her children have lots, and the rest (92%) has trouble putting food on the table each day? God loves us? Yeah well, he/she has a funny way of showing it.

I don't believe in God per se, but I can't say absolutely that I don't believe in possibility of spirits, or the possibility of people who can contact them. So if you're willing to entertain the possibility of life after death, then you come back to the question of the existance of some kind of god or higher being.......Nah, I still don't believe in God

I think what you're experiencing is a kind of melancholy that affects many 'thinking people'. If you're a sensitive person and know even a little bit about what's going on in the world, about the misery and suffering that billions of people experience everyday, how can you be truly happy?

The melancholy is also a yearning for more. More what? I don't know either, but this disatisfaction we live with is I guess what they call "the human condition". Welcome to the adult world.........
 

thedreamweaver

Senior Member
It's true. I find that a truly good God cannot exist, at least not in the conventional way that people suppose. I guess I'm an agnostic, since while I don't propound a typical 'old bearded man' God, I am less sure about whether there might well be some kind of something. A spirit - a something - not even necessarily a 'creator' figure or anything that has any influence on our lives, but just something that exists, parallel to earth and parallel to the human race.
 

Linton Robinson

Senior Member
Leave religion out of it. The very concept is twisting the concept of God around to the point that you can't get close to the reality.

Don't worry about belief, even. You are essentially talking about a personal experience. A way of looking at the world. There is no possible proof available, pro or con. Essentially you decide to believe and accept because you want it that way.

You don't need to explain or defend it. It's a way of feeling, a self-guidance system.

Orientation to the ultimate, to the intelligence behind things, of which your own experience and intelligence is a tiny chip containing all details, just as each cell of your body contains the information of the whole, is individual.

An analogy would not be the feudal lord model you hear about in church, it would be like experiencing love or orgasm. If somebody told you those don't exist you would simply realize that they are frigid or heart-crippled and feel sorry for them. No amount of argument of description on their part would affect your own experience.

Try meditation. Any kind. It's worth noting that budhism is the most sane of the world's religions and they don't even talk about God, as such.

Try prayer. If you want to know somebody, even a dog, you talk to them. Much of what goes on here is in that still, personal space in which you open yourself to guidance from something bigger, older, wiser, and more experienced than you are. If you get answers from prayers, you are on the track.

I don't mean answers like what school to go to or getting that cadillac you prayed for. The only REAL prayer is to seek to do the will of the highest elements you can experience. And throwing in a little thanks is not a bad idea, it sets a tone for you, doesn't it? If you don't feel you have anything to be thankful for, that may be part of your problem.

It's instructive to note some precepts of the 12 Step Program (AA, NA, etc.) One is to define "God" or "higher power" AS I UNDERSTAND IT
That's pretty profound. For one thing, what good is anything you can't understand?
Another is praying only for God's will in your life. If you can find a consistent reason towards ANY path that seems to express the deeper meanings and feelings of your life, you are ahead of the game. The deeper and more central these feelings are, the more significant they are and the more you can feel that they are who you are.

You could do worse than to worship the sun. You look at what the solar system is for awhile and what are you seeing? All matter, all energy, all paths and plans and lives spinning out as ever-tinier eddies in the field of light and energy radiating from a central source that gives all life, that gives everything. THe more you know about it, the more profound the relationship between yourself and the sun is seen to be.

To expand that concept and feeling a little approaches the general feel of a lot of the spiritual experience of humans on earth. From a saddhu basking in bliss to black baptists rolling and crying out at the wash of music and soul.

If atheist arguments hold you back from this, consider two things:
Outside of pure mathematics it is almost impossible to prove that anything does not exist. There is always the alternate explanation, that it just wasn't perceived. Where as observation by any one person is enough to convince that the thing exists.

Here's another one: atheism, in which I include the entire mechanistic, soul-less explanation of our existance, is among other things a fad. It might be a factor of your isolation from nature and each other. Living in the natural world is a strong persuader towards the agency of an intelligence behind the structure and process of things.
But the idea that there is something going on other than random chance is the oldest idea, most widely held and felt, most powerful and productive concept in human history.

Ultimately there is nobody but yourself to make these sort of alignments. If you are lucky your direction moves you towards those who experience life the way that you do.
 

Foxee

Patron
Patron
If you aren't sure there is a God, there is no harm in praying, "If you're there, God, help me to find you."

If he's not there, you've lost nothing but a few simple words. If he is, I'm sure he's perfectly capable to make himself real to you.

While I believe that God exists and is all-powerful, I also believe he allows himself to be known by those who want to find him. He also allows for people to ignore him.

I am not going to debate this. A question has been asked and I've answered.
 

patthager

Senior Member
I agree with lin. Most religions are not much more then well worded nonsense. But, the further east you go, the more intelligent they get. This whole concept of FINDING or EXPERIENCING a god is a western concept with western wording invented by western missionaries (like Columbus or Cortez). I would probably say that you will never experience a god unless you were raised by Christian parents, have almost exclusively christian friends, and go to church regularly. It takes a specifically cultured mind, you have to fit a certain mold.

There is a whole in many peoples lives. Most people fill it with friends and magazines, others with self pity, some with religion. People should not be so ready cram their souls with whatever comes along. Stop being perfect, stop being complete, and develope an individuality
p.s. dont get lost in the supermarket
 

Linton Robinson

Senior Member
Agnosticism(essentially, I Don't Know) is the most honest and unassailable position on these matters.

Atheism is the most dogmatic and unprovable position.
 

Hodge

pliable
Senior Member
Atheism is not the most dogmatic and unprovable. At least the belief in something's non-existence is based on what we've observed thus far (and even then, there are different degrees of atheism -- secular atheism being divided into the belief that there is no god and the belief that we should assume there is no god until evidence comes our way, and religious atheism just being a religion without any gods).

That said, agnosticism is the best choice. Can't rule out the possibility of there being a god or pantheon of gods, but you also shouldn't act like you know there is.
 
N

nobodyreal

thedreamweaver said:
It’s really late; even now I see the digital onscreen clock creep with its sly digits towards midnight. Yet I can’t sleep and somehow I don’t seem to be able to do anything but think and write – despite the fact that the capacity of my thinking and writing is painfully slim.

I feel sad and I don’t know why; desperate for something which I can’t quite hone out; sobbing inside for something lacking but which I know I’ll never find. How could I, after all, when I can’t even pinpoint exactly what it is?

On the surface I’m bubbly and carefree, disregarding any kind of problems with an optimistic, slightly disapproved flourish. But inside I’m crying out for – for what? I can’t tell, and perhaps I’m exaggerating but I do feel there is something vital, something crucial, something missing from my life. Almost as if I’m pursuing something beautiful and perfect, that will complete my life, but yet – it eludes me, merely because I don’t really know its own nature.

Do you know what I really wish? I wish I could find God. I wish there was a God, because for some reason lately I’ve really felt the need for one. That, of course, in typical Freudian way, explains it all. Because I’ve wanted a God to exist recently, doubts begin to form in my mind about my own deep-rooted atheism. It’s pure selfishness; I tell myself, since I’m only fabricating these inclinations to suit my feeling and ease my mood. Yet reading the above paragraph, I know what a religious person would direct me to do: to find God.

I wish I could find God. I wish I could find solace in religion; pray, and convince myself that everything will turn out all right (or that even if it didn’t, there would be a greater purpose for it). But I can’t, I really can’t believe. I hope with everything in me that there is something else – something more – because if there isn’t, life is the most overrated and yet futile activity on earth. Looking at it this way, it is wholly depressing. There is no getting away from it. No matter what we do on earth – whether we are scholars or tramps, old men or babies – we end up in the same unconscious eternity, the same infinite nothingness. Religion tells us that death is not necessarily an end, but merely the end of a single phase. Science, ever contrary to these Sunday school, comforting views, tells us that death is just a blunt finish-line in a race that nobody wins.

That reminds me of a Paul Simon lyric….”Laugh about it; shout about it… when you’ve got to choose – every way you look at it, you lose…”

In a way that’s kind of relevant to life as a whole: whether you laugh in life, shout or perhaps even cry, whether you choose religion or science, belief or non-belief – every way you look at it, you lose in the end. Nobody’s ultimately a winner. Unless of course, Karl Marx was wrong when he declared religion ‘the opiate of the masses”.

This is very insighful. I think you epitomized the thoughts that must go through every Atheists head.
 

Linton Robinson

Senior Member
Atheism is not the most dogmatic and unprovable. At least the belief in something's non-existence is based on what we've observed thus far

Contradiction backed up by nothing at all. What a surprise. And this from Mr. Math. Next time you go to school, talk to some math guys about the difficulty of proving something as opposed to ruling a possibility out.

But I'll make it simple for you.
Three guys go into a room, then come out. One says, I saw a cat in there. Second says, I didn't see a cat. Third guy says, there is no cat in that room.

Which argument is the most dogmatic and unprovable???? Think before you answer. (For a change) If you don't understand the analogy ask (for a change)

Everything you say here about the existance of intelligence rather than randomness behind reality could just as easily be said about love or orgasm by somebody who has not experienced them.
(Hmmmm, could this be a source of your tension, snarfiness, and need for analysis?)

Most virgins tend to accept the experiences related by those who experience love and orgasms. We would laugh our ass off at somebody who said they didn't exist because he hadn't experienced them. And it would be REALLY fun watching them try to "prove" it. (Their arguments would be identical to those of atheists, logically speaking)
 
G

Gorthaur

lin said:
Three guys go into a room, then come out. One says, I saw a cat in there. Second says, I didn't see a cat. Third guy says, there is no cat in that room.

The third guy is almost completely sure the first guy is making up the nonsense about a cat. The second guy just doesn't get that there is enough evidence to make a decision.

Even strong atheists like Richard Dawkins don't completely rule out the possibility of a God, and I've never met a single person who does. They just say God is extremely improbable. And that's ignoring all the evidence that religions are human constructs, which is, of course, extremely significant. If you're familiar with the Santa Claus analogy (I'd guess you are), I'd like to hear why God is special.

And you certainly can't disprove God - that is not a strength. If anything it is a weakness.
 

Linton Robinson

Senior Member
If you're familiar with the Santa Claus analogy
REALLY bad analogy, and so are your arguments here.

People don't really believe in Santa Claus, not even the guy who wrote to Virginia. People DO beleive in an intelligent order behind events and reality, many because they have personally experienced it.

By the way, the third guy has absolutely no reason or evidence to say the first guy is making up the cat. You cooked that up (then threw in "almost" to try to try to clean it up because you're apparently the only person alive who has never heard atheist state categorically that there is nothing and even that they can prove it scientifically.)

Stick to the analogies that are more germaine, (Like mine, of course) and you might get cleared up on this thing)
 

Voodoo

Senior Member
God's in your pants, love.

A trojan idol.

A smut savior.

Hope for good kids that you love, that's the afterlife for you.
 

Hodge

pliable
Senior Member
lin said:
REALLY bad analogy, and so are your arguments here.

People don't really believe in Santa Claus, not even the guy who wrote to Virginia. People DO beleive in an intelligent order behind events and reality, many because they have personally experienced it.

By the way, the third guy has absolutely no reason or evidence to say the first guy is making up the cat. You cooked that up (then threw in "almost" to try to try to clean it up because you're apparently the only person alive who has never heard atheist state categorically that there is nothing and even that they can prove it scientifically.)

Stick to the analogies that are more germaine, (Like mine, of course) and you might get cleared up on this thing)

Kids believe in Santa Claus. Why? Because they're told to. I know you, like scientologists, don't believe in the social sciences, but luckily your belief doesn't trump the scientific method. Religion is a cultural tool, and it's plainly obvious why: because we naturally fear the unknown, and when we're able to contemplate life's big mysteries we find some big unknowns.

You also find another problem. Sure, I can't tell you you didn't experience some "higher order." By that token, you can't tell me I didn't experience another, conflicting "higher order." Nor can you tell it to the millions of others who've all experienced different universal truths. It's more likely you perceive what you want to perceive, not that anyone's experienced any kind of "higher order."
 
G

Gorthaur

lin said:
REALLY bad analogy, and so are your arguments here.

People don't really believe in Santa Claus, not even the guy who wrote to Virginia. People DO beleive in an intelligent order behind events and reality, many because they have personally experienced it.

Personal experience proves nothing.

By the way, the third guy has absolutely no reason or evidence to say the first guy is making up the cat.

As it applies to God, he does. But if you want to make your analogy that simple, it's useless. It doesn't apply to anything.

You cooked that up (then threw in "almost" to try to try to clean it up because you're apparently the only person alive who has never heard atheist state categorically that there is nothing and even that they can prove it scientifically.)

Show me one example of this. Saying "There is no God" is completely distinct from saying "I am 100% sure it is impossible for any sort of gods to exist under any circumstances." If the kinds of atheists you've dealt with before say they can disprove God scientifically and this other nonsense, I wouldn't blame you for thinking they're idiots.
 

Zensati

Senior Member
The way I see it. Is that the Universe runs under scientific rules, There Is a very complex design to the Universe, Theres a kind of Intelligence or set of Universal Laws that govern everything. So If their is a Complicated design that means there must have been some kind of complex energy or Intelligence to create ,design, and maintain all these complex arrangements. If you want, you could call this complex Intelligence - god.

But If their Is a God Its way beyond our understanding.
 

Voodoo

Senior Member
So:

Its everything that's complex

we can't even begin to understand it

but we know it's complex.
 

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