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Is It God? (1 Viewer)

I once heard this expression, “Did God create us, or did we create God?” I find it a very interesting question because I have wondered the same thing only wasn't able to put it into words.
When I was younger, and even still now, people told me that no one is perfect, except God. It seemed to make sense at the time but now that I've gotten older and thought about it with more depth, it doesn't match up. If God is perfect, and He created man, how come people aren't perfect? How come people die, and when they do, others fill themselves with sadness and anger? I can't picture a god just standing by and letting all his “children” stay heart-broken. What if it was your child? Would you sit back and not comfort your child when they're hurt? I just don't see His relationship being anything special with us, if God exists that is, without Him contributing a little himself.
The world has changed in many ways throughout the years, and everyone is able to see it, but no one does anything about it.
I would think that if there's a God, He would want us to believe in Him, and follow Him. How are we to do this when so many have lost whatever faith there was left? If He wants us to believe in Him it should be shown, otherwise in a thousand years God might just be considered a myth.
If He washed out the Earth once to start over, it sure seems like a good time for Him to do it again. Unless He has given up on people for good. In that case, is He really as perfect and grand as everyone makes Him out to be? Everything in the world is getting worse everyday, and I'm sure there's no way to fix that now. We've made the hole too deep and the only thing that can pull us out is something as powerful as a god, but we need more than just faith to do it. This all seems useless to ponder about now, because whatever god there ever was has obviously moved on.
Of course, when watching the news you hear things about miracles. They happen all the time according to certain people. Yet, here everyone is still, suffering and having to pay to live. A miracle doesn't happen to just one person, or a few. Miracles should affect everyone, for we're all the same, we're all just humans put here for whatever purpose. It wouldn't be fair for selected people to be treated better by God than others whoa re just as important. In my opinion, there won't be any real miracles until everyone has experienced it.
Have you ever heard of or played the Telephone Game? It's where one person says a phrase, and the next person has to repeat it to someone else. The phrase is passed through even just ten people, and the person who it was last told to says out loud what they heard. Most likely it's nothing close to the original phrase. Words get mixed up and mis-translated as each person repeats it. This is how I view the Bible. I believe that every verse in the Bible may just be an exaggeration or mis-translation. As long ago as each even happened, there could be few true statements surrounded by things that never even occurred. There's no way we can prove it ever being right, yet we can't prove it wrong. Hence my reasoning for why God would be best to restore our faith, otherwise we're just wasting our time believing in something that doesn't care for us anymore.
 

damien_frosst

Senior Member
Religion's always a touchy subject, which is probably why nobody's said anything on this post yet. That, or I'm just really quick on it.

I'm not going to put out an argument for or against G/god. That'd be silly. Everyone's got their opinion, and I'm glad that I don't have to state mine.

What I am going to do, is tackle a couple of the points you made in your post.

First. People dying and the suffering caused by that. I'm probably a minority here, but I was always taught that death was natural, and also, not a sad occasion. It's natural, because it's the way things go. You're born, you live, you die. But it's not sad, or at least, shouldn't be sad, because if you believe, then you're going on to heaven, and that's a good thing, right?

Personally, I feel that being sad about death is silly. People die all the time, and we're not affected by every one of them. Only by the ones that have some impact on our own lives. If you think about it, that's kind of silly. Death is death, closeness to ourselves shouldn't change it's significance.

You mentioned lost faith. That's really only the case if you can show that there was a lot of faith before. I've no way to tell if there really is less faith or not. Certainly people believe in things... just not necessarily G/god. Or at least, not a Christian God. Most of the people I know have a firm belief in something out there, whatever that may be. Others, have the firm belief that there is nothing out there, or in science alone. Any strong belief is a form of faith, and there's no reason for me to think that just becuase there are fewer Christians, that there's less faith.

You mentioned the washing out of the Earth. Maybe you forgot to read the part about the rainbow, which is supposed to be His promise never to do that again. It's in there, you just have to read a little further.

You said: Miracles should affect everyone, for we're all the same...

I don't think that's right. We're all different. Sure, we're similar, but that doesn't make us the same. The fact that somethings happen to some people and not to others is part of what makes us different. In some cases, it's fairness that has us unequally treated. Real fairness is about getting what you need, not what's equal. If you go back to the Bible again (since I'm still assuming you're on the Christian God thing here), you'd see that there's a lot of times when miracles are described, and they don't affect everyone. In fact, many times, they affect just one person, or a small group of people.

There's also the bit about "blessed are those that have believed though they have not seen", a la Doubting Thomas.

As for your theory of the Bible. Yeah, it's been said before.

Just so I know, though, what would God have to do to restore everyone's faith? Any ideas?

Like I said at the start. Faith, God, religion. Always a touchy subject. I hope I didn't come across as angry, annoyed, arrogant or other descriptives. I'm just posing questions back to you.

Remember, each person is entitled to their beliefs.
 
I agree with some things that you said. But I haven't read what I wrote in a quite a while I just kind of posted it from my files so I might have even said a few things that I don't agree with anymore.

One is about that of death being natural. I completely agree and that's why I don't understand why humans take it to heart while other animals don't. I wonder what made people different in that way so much from all the other animals.

What I meant about lost faith is that there seems to be less and less people believing the Bible and God. I see that I wasn't very specific about that. But I've seen many people around me questioning what they believe, but in History we learn what different cultural's religions are, and I haven't yet seen atheist or anything of the sort. But of course, then, people were forced to believe different things, whether they really did or not I can't say.

The thing about miracles..no we're not all the same, we are different, but by affecting everyone I mean that it's not right for something good to happen to one person, but someone else dealing with the same issue doesn't get anything. If they're what God would consider good people they should both get equal treat, in that way.

For God to restore people's faith I think he should just give some sort sign, a sign that says for sure it's him, not a sign that people will just assume it's God. If he's able, even make an appearance. I don't know, just something to set things straight. I think it would give people a reason to do good in their lives, right now I don't think many people really care.

One of my mistakes about all this is I haven't read the Bible. I base my opinions only on things I've heard from others, and am obviously missing details. Even earlier today my friend mentioned something I didn't know, but yet I've never heard it from anyone else.

I'm glad you're responding, I think everyone should be open about religion. It opens their minds and lets them think about everything, instead of just being stuck on what they think they know.

There's something I thought about today, just a crazy thought but...what if, with the religious stories that are written, the people who say that they experienced something like I don't know...um...well on t.v. they always have the water go to the sides so that Moses and his people can get through..what if it was just a hallucination because they were high on acid or something and they missed what really happened? Ha..I don't know..
 

Cipher2

Senior Member
"For God to restore people's faith I think he should just give some sort sign, a sign that says for sure it's him, not a sign that people will just assume it's God. If he's able, even make an appearance. I don't know, just something to set things straight. I think it would give people a reason to do good in their lives, right now I don't think many people really care."

It's funny that people have this attitude. People want their God to be human like them; to drag Him down to their level, or even below their level so that He must 'give them a sign' so that they will be able to, without any further seeking, believe in Him.

What would happen if any person, no matter how ignorant or bad intentioned, could achieve recognition of the Creator in this way? That would not suddenly make them knowing. They would carry on living their life as before still harbouring the same faults.

I agree that death is natural. It is strange how people fight this cycle loosing, inevitably. People seem to want to place themselves outside of everything that is natural when it comes to their living habits as though some different law applies to them.

All this is my belief if that is the right word. I don't think it is very easy to debate this subject in text. I think people make their own minds up.
 
"They would carry on living their life as before still harbouring the same faults."

But wouldn't knowing that they have something to live for maybe change their attitudes because they'd know for sure that a higher power won't let them get away with it?
I'll even use me as an example...I don't believe in God as of now but I'm open for the subject, because I know the possibility is there. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, therefore, I don't really care what I say or do for the reasons of something watching over me. I only care because it's me that believes something is wrong that I say or do, not some God. But if they KNEW that they'll go to Hell if they don't start being a better person..wouldn't that change their mind? Of course..there's people that just don't care either way..

I don't think I got my point across up there..I started getting into something else.
 

damien_frosst

Senior Member
SycoKitty6 said:
The thing about miracles..no we're not all the same, we are different, but by affecting everyone I mean that it's not right for something good to happen to one person, but someone else dealing with the same issue doesn't get anything. If they're what God would consider good people they should both get equal treat, in that way.

See, that's the issue right there. Fair is not the same as equal. When you're kids that's all you see as being fair - equality. Everything is fair if everyone gets exactly the same thing. Fairness, real fairness, is about need. Not desire, not deserving, not want, just need. If two people are in the same situation, they don't necessarily need the same help.

For example. Say a swimmer and a non-swimmer both fall off a bridge into some water. The swimmer does not need help, but the non-swimmer does. It'd be fair for someone to help the non-swimmer, and leave the swimmer alone to help himself. Sure, you could help both of them, but the swimmer really wouldn't need it.

It's the same thing with miracles. They're different for different people because no matter how similar people are, they're not the same. Everyone's need is different. And everyone's willingness to accept things is different too. Offering help to someone who doesn't want it, no matter how badly they need it, isn't going to work.

An aside on miracles here. Everyone expects miracles to be huge things. Why? They don't have to be. They can be small, everyday things, at just the right time and place. Looking for a huge lightshow or other giant sign that "this is a miracle!" isn't really going to happen very often. Take the little things for what they are, and be happy they're there.

For God to restore people's faith I think he should just give some sort sign, a sign that says for sure it's him, not a sign that people will just assume it's God. If he's able, even make an appearance. I don't know, just something to set things straight. I think it would give people a reason to do good in their lives, right now I don't think many people really care.

If someone walked up to you and said "Hi! I'm God." Would you believe them? How huge and impressive would the sign have to be before people unequivocally believed? I don't think that you'd ever convince everyone, no matter what God did. I mean... if you take the Christian tact, he's already created the universe... and still, people don't believe. I'm not sure I could concieve of a sign bigger than that.

Secondly, there's this bit about free will. Free will means, by definition, choice. You choose to believe or not believe. If God came down and say "Hey everyone, look! I'm God, now believe in me." I think that'd pretty much negate the idea of free will. That we have choice of what, and whether to believe.

One of my mistakes about all this is I haven't read the Bible. I base my opinions only on things I've heard from others, and am obviously missing details. Even earlier today my friend mentioned something I didn't know, but yet I've never heard it from anyone else.

There's a lot in the Bible. Tons of stuff. And it's all been interpreted and re-interpreted hundreds and thousands of times. You're always going to hear something new.

I'm glad you're responding, I think everyone should be open about religion. It opens their minds and lets them think about everything, instead of just being stuck on what they think they know.

As long as things don't devolve into a shouting match.

There's something I thought about today, just a crazy thought but...what if, with the religious stories that are written, the people who say that they experienced something like I don't know...um...well on t.v. they always have the water go to the sides so that Moses and his people can get through..what if it was just a hallucination because they were high on acid or something and they missed what really happened? Ha..I don't know..

Eh. It's a theory. And not the first for this event. I've heard a theory that says the the red sea was probably at low tide, or that there was a sandbar, or that the whole crossing thing was at a point where the water was only a few feet deep. Eh, it's all speculation any way you look at it.
 

mammamaia

Senior Member
syco...

...in re your original question, go to my site [linked below] and to the 'philosetry' section of 'writings'... there, you'll find the answer in a piece called, 'autoerotica'... i didn't want to intrude on your thread and post it here, but will, if you want me to...

... i deal with this topic in many of my works, both essays and poems, so browse the site if you want more input...

love and hugs, maia
 
Damien, I get the feeling we're on different paths of miracles. No the swimmer wouldn't need it, but what if they were both non-swimmers..shouldn't a miracle be for them both to survive? Or like in car accidents, there's always casualities. Two cars hit head on and only one driver survives...why? Why doesn't God let them both live? I don't believe that if there's a god he would affect things in that way. THAT isn't fair, THAT isn't equal. But then again...there's too many people:!: So I guess if he lets their be death to control things.... :( Nevermind.. I'm confusing myself.

Also, if he's God, he can prove it to people. Not sure how but he should be able to find that way.

"he's already created the universe."

See, as you said, people don't believe he even did that. There's too many scientific reasonings for how the universe could have been created. And because there's so many explanations from other things, anything and everything is possible, dragging God along behind it in the dust because he's not the only choice. I don't see that as a sign because it wasn't definite, if you can see what I'm trying to get at.
 

mammamaia

Senior Member
syco... we seem to think alike in re the implausibility of there being any real 'god'... for material to back up your arguments, browse my site... if you want a list of titles dealing with this incongruity, let me know...

love and hugs, maia
[email protected]
 

damien_frosst

Senior Member
SycoKitty6 said:
Damien, I get the feeling we're on different paths of miracles. No the swimmer wouldn't need it, but what if they were both non-swimmers..shouldn't a miracle be for them both to survive? Or like in car accidents, there's always casualities. Two cars hit head on and only one driver survives...why? Why doesn't God let them both live? I don't believe that if there's a god he would affect things in that way. THAT isn't fair, THAT isn't equal. But then again...there's too many people:!: So I guess if he lets their be death to control things.... :( Nevermind.. I'm confusing myself.

Jsut to confuse the matter a little. Let's look at your example here. Assume two completely identical people. In completely identical situations. Assuming that they do everything the same, and have exactly the same personal lives, friends, etc. Then, they should have the same result. Physics (and science in general) relies on that as a basis of having anything meaningful and understandable happen.

So, with our identical people, yeah. I agree, they should both get the same miracle. Not a complaint from me at all. Anything else would be arbitrary and meaningless.

The trouble is, nobody in the real world is every really in that situation. There aren't any identical people. People are in very similar situations, but they're never in exactly the same situation. There's always difference. Sure, many of them are small, but that doesn't necessarily make them insignificant. So, from that stance, you can see why I'm saying that people in similar situations aren't necessarily going to need the same help.

If you'll permit a bit of theology: Sometimes, suffering is important. Even extreme suffering. Look at Job and his life. In other ways, it's sometimes important to have a bad example, or to have a display of punishment. Sure, it can seem cruel, but if one person's suffering (or death) helps others (or themselves), then ultimately, the suffering is good.

To quote a "standard" churchy saying: "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

Also, if he's God, he can prove it to people. Not sure how but he should be able to find that way.

Sure. But why should He? If you follow Bible doctrine, you'd know that God gave humans free will. We can choose to believe or not. Even if he proved it, we can still choose not to believe.

What I've got to wonder is this: Are you thinking that God should do something to make you believe? That's what I've been reading into what you're saying. If that happened, would it be right? Would you really be happier being forced to believe?

Let's go on to the next bit...

"he's already created the universe."

You've extracted this a little out of context, but I won't complain too much. You've still got the root of the message here.

See, as you said, people don't believe he even did that. There's too many scientific reasonings for how the universe could have been created. And because there's so many explanations from other things, anything and everything is possible, dragging God along behind it in the dust because he's not the only choice. I don't see that as a sign because it wasn't definite, if you can see what I'm trying to get at.

As I've said above. If there was something definate, you'd still have the choice to not believe it. If there was something that forced you to believe, would you prefer it?

If you can answer that question for me, then maybe we can get somewhere in answering your questions.
 

damien_frosst

Senior Member
mammamaia said:
...in re your original question, go to my site [linked below] and to the 'philosetry' section of 'writings'... there, you'll find the answer in a piece called, 'autoerotica'... i didn't want to intrude on your thread and post it here, but will, if you want me to...

Mammamaia, not to intrude here, or such, but I've taken a look at that piece. It's nicely done, btw. One line got me wondering though:

"Why is it, do you suppose that nowhere in this great, big, 6 billion+ human-populated world of ours, do people today worship a female God???"

Have you missed the New Age movement? Or that of Wicca?

Those are both focused on a goddess, which, though in many ways is given non-sexed distinctions, is also most commonly depeicted and referred to as female. Admittedly, New Age is a broad and encompassing philosophy, rather than a true religion, it still is very linked with things such as Wicca or druidism.

Maybe it's not mainstream enough. How about the Hindu religion?

And various Christian sects apply non-gendered roles to God as well. Whether that's out of some P.C. movement, or a desire to more accurately reflect the implied nature of divinity, I'm not sure.

Just something to think about.

Edited: I had originally referred to Ganesh as a female god. I have since been corrected. Please excuse my mistake.
 

Cipher2

Senior Member
I don't think it's right to ask God for a sign, even ridiculous when you think about it. After all isn't God supposed to be in charge of mankind not the other way around?
 

mammamaia

Senior Member
i have given it much thought, damien... and did not miss or ignore any of the belief systems... but i am referring to established religions that focus on a single god entity... monotheistic religions in which the almighty is a female... and there are none...

sure, there are religions and 'spiritual' beliefs that include 'goddesses' among their pantheons, but that's not what i'm referring to... perhaps i need to make that clearer in the line you quote?

thanks for your feedback... it's much appreciated, as always...

love and hugs, maia
 
Cipher - Yes God is supposed to be in charge of mankind....do you ever see it? I don't see him in charge of us. I don't see him doing anything.

Damien - We do have the right to believe or not..but..what's there to think about if we were to know for sure that he really exists? There'd be no questions. Now if we were to decide to rebel against him or side against him, that'd be our choice, our right.
 

damien_frosst

Senior Member
SycoKitty6 said:
Damien - We do have the right to believe or not..but..what's there to think about if we were to know for sure that he really exists? There'd be no questions. Now if we were to decide to rebel against him or side against him, that'd be our choice, our right.

That's precisely my point. If you believe, then you know he exists, and there's no questions about it. If you don't believe, then you've got questions.

I hate it when these arguments come to do faith, but honestly that's really the crux of the whole thing.

From a believer's standpoint, when a non-believer says, "where is proof of God?" all they can say for an answer is: "look around!"

But from a non-believer's standpoint, just the fact that things are isn't enough proof that they were made by God.

I'm not sure what act, or action or other thing would "make" you believe in something. More to the point, I'm not sure what could happen that would make everyone believe in that same something. I know, with an omnipotent god, anything is possible.

My point though, is that if you were forced to believe, then you have no choice. Sure, you could rebel against it, but that wouldn't change the fact that you still believed. You'd have no choice not to believe. By definition, if something proved that God existed (and was valid, common, accepted truth), then you've no grounds for disbelief.

I'm not sure how clear my point is coming across, but I think the argument's going circular anyway.
 

damien_frosst

Senior Member
mammamaia said:
i have given it much thought, damien... and did not miss or ignore any of the belief systems... but i am referring to established religions that focus on a single god entity... monotheistic religions in which the almighty is a female... and there are none...

sure, there are religions and 'spiritual' beliefs that include 'goddesses' among their pantheons, but that's not what i'm referring to... perhaps i need to make that clearer in the line you quote?

Ah. I thought you'd referred to all religions collectively. As a monothiestic religion goes, especially established Western religion, you're right. No female deities. Though God, in the church I went to at least, was called "He" but it was a gender-nonspecific "He."

Dunno if that counts for much.
 

Jp

Senior Member
I think that at this point in human "evolution," or existence, we need to realize that a belief system where 50% do not believe, or hold any real faith, is actually a hindrance to society as whole. This is because most people know that only one thing could save us is a heavenly miracle. People don't change, they fall back on a belief system, but not out of true faith, but, rather to comfort them in their confusion, and keep them from having to do the truly hard things, like accepting responsibility for what they do in life: with the knowledge that no ones going to clean it up behind them.
 
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