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I would like to start 2 threads (1 Viewer)

Llyralen

Senior Member
I feel like telling you guys here (probably because I know how invested many of you are in the poetry forum) before I do it that I'd like to create 2 threads that could possibly turn into something ongoing (this is my hope, anyway).

1. A "Share your poems, not for critique, however we are welcome to positively and honestly relate to each other" thread. I'm working on the title. I think people need this/want this... not just myself. You would maybe think this niche is filled by the "showcase" but I personally think of "showcase" as showing off your perfect end product, and these would not need to be perfect or end products and could be messy and/or emotional like poetry sometimes is. Using this space as a word doodle-pad of self-expression and to relate to each other would be encouraged. It would be openly more personal but hopefully positively so. It would not be about publication as is the intent of the Workshop.
2. A poetry chain thread "The poem above reminds me of this poem" as a way to share the poems that we love and to get exposed to each other's favorite poets. This wouldn't be our work (not usually anyway), and emphasis would be given to honoring and giving full credit to the poet who wrote the poem. Are there legal issues? Would it need to be pre-1930's/public domain poems or something? Or take exerpts from these poems? A shorter-lived chain would be "poets read their own work" and use youtube videos. There are quite few poets reading their work on there.. Let me know if there are any legalities to worry about if we just quote and give full credit.

Your thoughts?
 

Llyralen

Senior Member
The blog feature might be a better medium for a finished product positive feedback only showcase. It gives the owner of their blog more control over their content and curated replies.
Thank you for for your thoughts. Right now there is a “Post your beautiful words not for critique” thread in general Discussions. Like that, but poetry. One space to come together to.
 

TL Murphy

Met3 Member
Staff member
Chief Mentor
I’m not sure I see the difference between the first thread you describe and Poet’s Showcase which doesn’t contain much critique.

I like the idea of a poetry audio thread. I think that would fit well into the Poetry section. But I don’t see either of these in the Poetry Discussion board, which is about discussing ideas. But maybe that’s not what you had in mind.
 

Llyralen

Senior Member
I’m not sure I see the difference between the first thread you describe and Poet’s Showcase which doesn’t contain much critique.

I like the idea of a poetry audio thread. I think that would fit well into the Poetry section. But I don’t see either of these in the Poetry Discussion board, which is about discussing ideas. But maybe that’s not what you had in mind.
The word “showcase” scares me off. It sounds like something that should be preserved as is, under lock and key, for a work that is already considered as perfect as possible. I feel like it’s arrogant to put a poem in a “showcase”.

“Showcase” is kind of the opposite of the thread I am hoping to create. I want a space for messy organic poem creation. Not for critique, but for expression and relating to each other. Recognizing that for some of us poetry is our beat way or maybe our only way to express feelings and ideas. This thread would accept the mess and the person and emotion that the poem springs from. I think I am not the only person who would benefit from a space like this and I see spaces like this as being a powerhouse of creativity where people can be vulnerable and try things without fear. The personal feel would attract people, I believe.

However, if this kind of personal feel detracts from an atmosphere that is focused on publication and on separating a poet from their poem, then I have found places to express like this elsewhere. I was hoping to have it here where people love great poetry too.

I haven’t made these threads yet. I was waiting for hear from people if this kind of thing could be accepted.

I would think all the poetry lovers here would want a poem chain thread to honor the poems and poets we love, but I was wondering about quoting poems, is it legal to quote a whole poem if you give full credit to the author?
 
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Darkkin

WF Veterans
Keeping organic growth of multiple poems confined to a single thread is a tangle waiting to happen. Hypothetically when no one responds to poem A, but poem C gets swarmed with comment and encouragement. Poem A gets disgruntled and bumps their poem to the head of the conversation, so on and so forth.

The informal setting of the established 'showcase' board, despite its name, allows for such growth without poets stepping on each others' toes because they have their own lane (er...thread).

Pieces I've tossed up on here have been five minute scribbles that have benefitted from objective feedback rather than a surfeit of butterfly praise.

The workshop is for thorough critique and editing processes. 'Showcase' is pretty G rated and rarely more than PG in its intensity.
 
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Llyralen

Senior Member
Keeping organic growth of multiple poems confined to a single thread is a tangle waiting to happen. Hypothetically when no one responds to poem A, but poem C gets swarmed with comment and encouragement. Poem A gets disgruntled and bumps their poem to the head of the conversation, so on and so forth.

The informal setting of the established 'showcase' board, despite its name, allows for such growth without poets stepping on each others' toes because they have their own lane (er...thread).

Pieces I've tossed up on here have been five minute scribbles that have benefitted from objective feedback rather than a surfeit of butterfly praise.

The workshop is for thorough critique and editing processes. 'Showcase' is pretty G rated and rarely more than PG in its intensity.
Tangled and messy maybe, but more from a sharing perspective hopefully. Different “lanes” get different attention anyway. There actually isn’t a way to bump your own poem if it’s all in the same thread as others. We could make a thread that asked for truly no critique in the title, but I think that takes away one of the reasons I want the thread, basically to bounce ideas off of each other and relate.

I (we) don’t have to make the thread I’m asking for. But I think what I want is a thread that celebrates poetry’s process acknowledging the poet is someone who just expressed something vulnerable not just someone who wants a nice finished product. There wouldn’t be much separation between poet and poem in my thread, but it would still be positive.
 
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Darkkin

WF Veterans
Basic feedback (a reader's objective reactions), which is the primary function of 'Showcase' board has its place on the forum. An author's process, their emotions are their own.

Wanting a venue to eavesdrop on that process seems invasive. (This is how Poem X describes scribe A as a person). It breaks fourth wall and undermines the integrity of a work's ability to stand or fall on its own merit.

Single title threads do allow for discussion and noncritique tags can be added to titles, but a writer's process should remain separate because if it doesn't everything suddenly becomes personal and it is impossible to separate the author from the work. And that is is situation that can and will devastate a creator and their process.

There are options for author controlled blogs and private discussions to facilitate more indepth processes of a creative journey, a public thread on an open forum is not the best medium for such conversations. It's the internet and people can be harsh even if they don't intend to be. Utopia Growth Thread might seem like a good idea, built with the best intentions, but at the end of the day, people are still people...

Try starting a fluff replies only thread for organic poetry growth in the Tavern. See how it goes.
 
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PiP

Staff member
Co-Owner
I've read all the comments and the WF blog would be the best place to share poetry and the inspiration behind the poem or whatever if the showcase does not meet your requirements.

The Showcase is the place where members can share finished work although they may receive some feedback which is often appreciated. The workshop is the place where members seek help with their poetry. It is for WIP or a poem looking for a final polish for publication. I've learned a lot from not only posting my own poetry in the workshop but by reading critiques. You are not bound to change your poem just thank the person who offered crit and move on. It's your poem.

Or are you thinking more of a collaboration? We have a monthly fiction collaboration so we could always organise a monthly poetry collab. Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are looking for.
 
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Llyralen

Senior Member
Basic feedback (a reader's objective reactions), which is the primary function of 'Showcase' board has its place on the forum. An author's process, their emotions are their own.

Wanting a venue to eavesdrop on that process seems invasive. (This is how Poem X describes scribe A as a person). It breaks fourth wall and undermines the integrity of a work's ability to stand or fall on its own merit.
This is what is bothering me.
The fourth wall.

It can’t be helpful to separate them in mind really? I don’t listen to Beethoven and make a point of trying to forget it’s Beethoven. In fact, it means more when I know what was going on in his life to prompt a certain piece. Much more.

I’ve actually never seen anyone tear someone up in a thread like the kind I’m talking about. In fact, I would think people would get more torn up if the human being is forgotten, but I think people have respect. Especially on something marked “not for critique” Troll poets can be deleted, trolls can be banned. But I dont think breaking the forth wall is dangerous.

Does some piece of WF history need to get conveyed to me?

Single title threads do allow for discussion and noncritique tags can be added to titles, but a writer's process should remain separate because if it doesn't everything suddenly becomes personal and it is impossible to separate the author from the work. And that is is situation that can and will devastate a creator and their process.

Single title threads do allow for discussion and noncritique tags can be added to titles, but a writer's process should remain separate because if it doesn't everything suddenly becomes personal and it is impossible to separate the author from the work. And that is is situation that can and will devastate a creator and their process.


Llyralen says:
If it were criticized, agreed. If it is a safe space with growth mindset and mentoring mindset then I think it can only be good.
This is why I wanted to hear from others. If you can explain why it’s better to have separation— “the fourth wall”—then I’m listening. I think it defeats the purpose of poetry.
 

Darkkin

WF Veterans
Work stands or falls on its own merit. Can one enjoy Beethoven without doing an indepth study of his psyche? Yes. Does a reader have a right to an author's emotions and processes, absolutely not. If a reader cannot separate the emotions and process from the author, then that reader has failed to actually read and think for themselves. The reader failed, but the piece remains. The voice of the author remains. That is why the fourth wall matters.

Poetry still exists with readers dealing with the fourth wall without kowtowing to an author's ego. If one only desires praise and safe words from outsiders lauding their organic process then there is a problem with the process. Critical thinking is lost and growth stagnates because all the work is 'great'. Participation trophies do more harm than good because honest insight and open discourse matter.

Trying to poke beyond an author's fourth wall to make things personal is invasive and rude. It takes neutral ground and makes it about a person, not the work they have done. Rough drafts exist for a reason. It helps thwart things like toxic positivity, one of the most addicting and poisinous features of the creative process. (Too much of a good thing, perfect, no room for growth). The author's process is not open to a reader's opinion or discourse.

If the author shares insight fine, but to actively seek it undermines the process of creativity itself. How? Because the reader has failed in their attempts to think critically for themselves, to trust their own process and/or instincts. They cannot stand on their own two thoughts because there is only empty flattery.

As a writer, how can one respect that? Look at it as Wormtail panders to Voldemort...What is right, what is easy? Thinking and honesty are right, empty platitudes are easy because they cost nothing, they mean nothing in terms of creative growth potential. Learning to give and receive critique offers one of the greatest learning opportunities a writer can get.

This is why the fourth wall matters...so as readers, spectators, writers, artists we can evolve. Remove the fourth wall and forfeit one of a writer's greatest tools.

Try the organic growth, no boundaries, happy words only poetry thread...see how long the utopia of perfect words lasts. How long before someone is triggered because there is no neutral ground and it is all about their emotions, not their work.

Solid work is defensible and will stand on its own merit, its author's voice clear. And if work cannot support its own weight, is it really worth the reader's time when no effort has been expended on its creation?

Critique on word vomit poetry is actually one of the most dynamic of learning tools available to a writer on the internet. And the reactions one can receive on an objective critique of a 'personal' piece are among some of the most organic and overwought emotions to be found in creative forums.

Too much emotion and no fourth wall pollutes the viability of a work. If only positive feedback is allowed then the piece is probably not worth a reader's investment because such caveats imply a known, unaddressed flaw. In such cases, a writer may need to pause and ascess the own motives.

There is a reason utopias always fail. It is because people are flawed; it is because we have an inherent need to learn and grow beyond an existing stasis.

Read through the is a poem separate from the poet thread a little further down this board for more fourth wall is discussion and why it matters.
 
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Llyralen

Senior Member
Work stands or falls on its own merit. Can one enjoy Beethoven without doing an indepth study of his psyche? Yes. Does a reader have a right to an author's emotions and processes, absolutely not. If a reader cannot separate the emotions and process from the author, then that reader has failed to actually read and think for themselves. The reader failed, but the piece remains. The voice of the author remains. That is why the fourth wall matters.

Poetry still exists with readers dealing with the fourth wall without kowtowing to an author's ego. If one only desires praise and safe words from outsiders lauding their organic process then there is a problem with the process. Critical thinking is lost and growth stagnates because all the work is 'great'. Participation trophies do more harm than good because honest insight and open discourse matter.

Try poking beyond an author's fourth wall to make things personal is invasive and rude. It takes neutral ground and makes it about a person, not the work they have done. Rough drafts exist for a reason. It helps thwart things like toxic positivity, one of the most addicting and poisinous features of the creative process. (Too much of a good thing, perfect, no room for growth). The author's process is not open to a reader's opinion or discourse.

If the author shares insight fine, but to actively seek it undermines the process of creativity itself. How? Because the reader has failed in their attempts to think critically for themselves, to trust their own process and/or instincts. They cannot stand on their own two thoughts because there is only empty flattery.

As a writer, how can one respect that? Look at it as Wormtail panders to Voldemort...What is right, what is easy? Thinking and honesty are right, empty platitudes are easy because they cost nothing, they mean nothing in terms of creative growth potential. Learning to give and receive critique offers one of the greatest learning opportunities a writer can get.

I didn’t know there could be such strong differences of opinion about the purpose of poems or how they should be perceived. It sounds almost like this is coming from a school of thought?

I agree that an author should be able to share or retain what they want to of their own process. It is too bad I didn’t address this assumption earlier. I wouldn’t ask for more than people freely share themselves.

There is also an assumption that I don’t believe in critique. I do believe in critique… but maybe not for poems, unless people want it.

Wanting praise is not part of my agenda as far as I understand and I don’t know how an uncritiqued thread as I’m proposing would lead to praise? But I don’t mind if I or others feel good about themselves. We should, right? Isn’t there a therapeutic piece in self-expression that is valuable to the person and harmless in general? If more people wrote poems and felt good about it? Even from a very different standpoint than mine, wouldn’t it create more poetry enthusiasts? if we are looking at this for the purpose of serious poem creation? And I am serious about my poem writing, just not about it being about publication. I want people to feel healed through poetry by relating to one another.

I think poems can be tightened by the author or a poet told that a sentence isn’t well understood, but the raw emotion or idea is actually an extension of the person’s soul. I feel like critiquing a poem or even praising a poem for its wit or beauty is closer to critiquing or praising a prayer. It is my business to see whether or not I join in with the author. Do I see this thing they see or feel this thing they feel—-can I say amen? This is the purpose of a poem, in my opinion. If understanding the human condition is any part of this craft, then any true expression of our humanness is to be accepted for its own sake, no matter if it’s crude as a doll made 40,000 years ago. All I can do is relate or not relate, understand or not understand. The person who made it and the humanity involved IS there in front of us whether we acknowledge them or not. To not think of the person who makes a poem seems dehumanizing and against the purpose of art, in my opinion.

We can all have different opinions, though. I don’t feel this way about prose, but poems were my one mode of expression and healing at some points in my life and I definitely think my humanness is the important thing when I’m writing I dont know why I don’t feel the same about critique and prose, but I don’t. It’s not the same healing, bare-my-soul act of prayer for me. That’s interesting too… and we can all feel differently.
 

PiP

Staff member
Co-Owner
I want people to feel healed through poetry by relating to one another.
<snips>
the raw emotion or idea is actually an extension of the person’s soul.

<snip>
Do I see this thing they see or feel this thing they feel—-can I say amen? This is the purpose of a poem, in my opinion. If understanding the human condition is any part of this craft, then any true expression of our humanness is to be accepted for its own sake, no matter if it’s crude as a doll made 40,000 years ago.


I can do is relate or not relate, understand or not understand. The person who made it and the humanity involved IS there in front of us whether we acknowledge them or not. To not think of the person who makes a poem seems dehumanizing and against the purpose of art, in my opinion.

When I read a poem I take away my own meaning. How the poem touched my soul. Can I relate to the words the author is trying to convey? Not always. Do I care. No. While it is the author's poem to write it is the reader's poem once in print. I

Poetry is like a good meal to savour and enjoyl: Do you need to know how to cook it or what was going through the chef's mind when he created it, No.

Why don't you start a WF Blog and see how it goes?
 

Darkkin

WF Veterans
If one can empathise with a poem or use its message to make sense of their situation or emotions then the piece has done its job. It stands on its own merit.

If, however, a poem is too 'personal' to stand on its own in a medium as benign as the 'showcase' because the word 'showcase' is too off putting, one might need to consider, does that piece need to be made public?

Yes poetry provides escape for a lot of people, but some things, (e.g. personal revelation, emotions etc...) are not meant for the public eye. If a 'safe space' is required for the piece, treat it like therapy and keep the space neutral and private, not a thread on an open forum.
 

TL Murphy

Met3 Member
Staff member
Chief Mentor
Personally, I have found a home on WF precisely because it encourages honest and rigorous critique. There are also strong standards here against attacking the poet. Anyone involved in critique needs to understand the difference between critiquing the poem and criticizing the poet. Poets need to understand that too if they want to share their work with other people -that critique of their poetry is not a comment on their character.

The internet is full of poetry forums where you can receive nothing but rose-coloured responses and where rigorous critique is frowned upon. WF offers an honest alternative to that. For me, the former offers no more value than posting your poems on Facebook.

Having said this, a member of WF is free to start a blog and encourage others to participate. On a blog you can set your own rules and moderate as you see fit as long as you don't encourage hate speech (and I have no reason to think you would).This would be more comprehensive than a board that is outside WF’s philosophy - which is rigorous and honest critique while respecting the poet. A philosophy is not the same thing as a “school of thought”.

Also, a thread is messy. As Darkin points out, it’s easy to get off track.
 
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Pamelyn Casto

WF Veterans
Or are you thinking more of a collaboration? We have a monthly fiction collaboration so we could always organise a monthly poetry collab. Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are looking for.
I'd be very interested in doing the above with poems, PiP. I have this gorgeous collection titled Renga: A Chain of Poems where four major poets collaborated in 1969 in the basement of a Paris hotel to do this collection. Those poets are Octavio Paz, Jacques Roubaud, Eduardo Sanguineti, and Charles Tomlinson. Theirs was a renga chain of sonnets (linked poems) and each poet provided a quatrain, tercet, or couplet to each sonnet in his own language and wrote in its entirety the last sonnet of the section he had opened. (All the sonnets were then translated into English.) I'd love to see a group of us try something like this.

It doesn't have to be this elaborate of course. It could be a collaboration on a single poem. I've done collaborations in the past and liked what each writer involved brought out in the other writer. There should be no problem as long as the poets involved keep track of their own and each others' lines so if the poets part ways, the lines still remain with the original writer. (But the collaborative poem gets undone).

During this Covid thing one, concerning this Covid thing, online magazine did a mass collaboration of more than 200 poets from more than 200 countries. Each poet provided a single line to the poem. That turned out to be quite a moving poem. The magazine also nominated it for a Pushcart Prize. I was honored to be among those writers of that poem.

So if you set this up for poets, I'd be interested.
 

TL Murphy

Met3 Member
Staff member
Chief Mentor
A renge is a great idea. I've done this before as collaboration. Metaphor 3 did one a few years ago but it didn't go very far. I wrote one by myself over a year, writing one tanka a day.

The English version of the traditional Japanese renge is a series of 5-line tankas. The first 3 lines are a haiku, 5-7-5, the next two lines are 7-7 and written by another person. Then a haiku again by a third person, etc. So it looks like this

5 syllables
7 syllables
5 syllables

7 syllables
7 syllables

5
7
5

7
7

and so on. Each stanza, whether 2 lines or 3, is written by a different person. An exercise like this really helps to hone one's skill in brevity and concise expression.

Anyone can play.
 
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Pamelyn Casto

WF Veterans
Should I start a new thread in this group called something like Group Renga? I'd head the thread with Tim's guidelines for a renga and I'd start with the first haiku (then someone else would write the 7-7 lines), using the same thread. I have the haiku but need to know if the Renga should take place on this thread or elsewhere?
 

TL Murphy

Met3 Member
Staff member
Chief Mentor
As a group collaboration this seems like as good a place as any. But check wit Carole or Darren just in case. You want to title it in such a way that others know it's a collaboration. Ranges are great.
 
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