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"After" Question (1 Viewer)

Olly Buckle

The Leda myth is an extremely popular one in Renaissance art, and although the sonnet reference in the title is a good clue. I can't help thinking that the references are obvious to those who know, but that some reference might clue in newcomers to poetry. Yeats is a very well known name, but let's face it he was born in the 1800's, that's a heck of a long time ago for our computer generation, but they deserve the opportunity to explore things.

I never knew that about E. E. Cummings, I guess I have only seen his name on published stuff, I have adjusted, we live and learn.

Pamelyn Casto

WF Veterans
What my Leda poem should do is stir an interest or curiosity in the original so those not familiar with that poem can look into it. I imagine it's still required reading for a lot of college courses. Surely the computer generation is aware of writers like Yeats or even Homer who goes back to 8th or 7th BCE (I just looked it up). So we're always reaching back in poetry.

If someone isn't familiar with Yeats' poem, my poem should give a good idea of the sort of situation under discussion. I imagine there are millions or maybe billions of poems readers won't be familiar with. There's no way of avoiding that problem. My poem should also be able to stand on its own. And remember, too, that Yeats didn't invent Leda or that swan-- he took it from Greek myth but made of it his own stand-alone poem.

Thanks, Olly. In talking this through I've decided my Leda/ Dr. Swann poem requires no "after." Like everything else, it all can get so confusing.


Met3 Member
Staff member
Chief Mentor
Good grief! What a whack of commentary on a relatively straightforward subject. I've learned more about plagiarism and related matters in the past ten minutes than I have in the last 20 years!

Re "after": between Tim and Pamelyn, there ain't a whole lot more to say. I'm confident in asserting that usage here has not evolved to the "required convention" stage, so if you have any nervousness about it . . .don't use it. What's the matter with "my thanks to" or "J Clodhopper first used this phrase in his "the Clods" (1999). I use it as George's opening proposal" or "I am indebted to__________________". Point is, the exact language doesn't matter much

The core of plagiarism, generally regarded as the Academic Sin of Sins is: did the writer consciously take the words or ideas of another writer and without acknowledgement publish them as her/his own?" (I had a paper submitted once that not only was copied verbatim from an article in the 1911 Britannica, the student had razor-bladed the article out of Britannica, to avoid detection.). Yes, over centuries of evolution the concept and practice has become clouded and uncertain, but if you stick to the CORE you won't go too far wrong. And if absolutely essential to avoid anyone pointing the hairy finger at you, there's nothing wrong with a footnote in a work of fiction. Unusual, but done occasionally. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I thought there was a strong possibility a complex situation in my piece might be construed as plagiarism.

Proving plagiarism can be a dog's breakfast of a chore . . . . I dimly recall a court case in Canada donkey's years ago where a writer wrote a SEQUEL to another writer's original work, without a word to the original writer. He didn't get away with it, because he used all the central names and situations from the original AND (this is what sunk him) he adopted all the traits and linguistic tags of characters introduced in the original.

Finally, when does something from the past enter the "Public Domain" and no longer require acknowledgment? Pamelyn, your point about Leda and the swan is a good one. It is of course not accurate to say "everyone knows that myth", esp. with far too many Millenials spouting nonsense like "rock 'n roll begins with Elvis and the Beatles! Nuthin' before that matters at all. Waste of time." I say, exercise that rare quality, common sense. Directly referencing the peace and serenity of neat bean rows and hives of honey bees in YOUR work and NOT acknowledging Yeats's relevant poem, would be a big mistake. But writing "he was as gullible as Othello" or "that's as likely as a Doctor getting hung up over some white chickens", without acknowledgment, would be fine. And some of you reading this will disagree that the ref. to William Carlos Williams would be in the "Public Domain." Yeah, well whaddayou know anyway? . . . .and yer Mudder wears army boots. 🤪
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Senior Member
I re-wrote the intro to P&Prejudice. Responded to Ginsberg. Oh, wrote a short Bukowski mailman piece where he fucks every dog in the street. I was very keen on that one for a while. But ‘jokes’ from two years ago are not so much fun re-posted - unless they are really really strong.

Oh - and nobody ever replied to my Madamophosis - on this forum - so less said the better, umm…


Met3 Member
Staff member
Chief Mentor
"less said . . . ." applied to either of us, just might be the shortest oxymoron ever written.

I've started a petition to force you to find a more mysterious stuffed dog. One wag retorted, "stuff him . . .!" but I scoffed at that one, explaining that you had good mileage left in you, so stuffing would be premature. Besides, you would be far too bulky to fit as a little avatar on all these WF pages (There's a wonderful moment in Kurt Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions, where one character thrusts a large fold-out photo of a naked woman and says, "Oh man! look at that! Would I ever love to fuck THAT!" The other guy says, in a comforting tone, "Are you alright Ed? You sure? 'Cause, Ed -- that's a piece of paper."

(there will be a three-hour written test late next week. The topic: Defining Appearance and Reality When all You've Ever Looked At Is A Cellphone Screen.)
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