The Bards' Bistro - Page 9


Page 9 of 102 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516171959 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 1020

Thread: The Bards' Bistro

  1. #81
    Baron
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxee View Post
    Okay, let me clarify what I mean by something being cliched vs. original.

    If I read a poem and right at the beginning I know exactly how it's going to run and going to end and I'm right it doesn't feel 'original'. For example, the scores of teen angst love poems "I lost you (or can't have you) and it hurts." If that is ALL the poem conveys it comes across as unoriginal.

    The writer (poem or story) has to go beyond that and offer a fresh perspective (if you can find one) or a twist or something to make it stand out from all the others like it. Make something old new again.
    You put it so well, Foxee...

    Everything is cliche inasmuch as there is nothing that has never been used before by someone. The issue is to present a well used language in a fresh an appealing way.
    Great minds think alike but trust a woman to make it simpler.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    The judging would be on a gradient rubric. I threw together one really quickly to get the point across. This is standard in academic settings. Keep in mind that this is five minutes work.

    Rubric
    OK - understanding that it's thrown together in a short time -
    conversely, it's something that you've put forward for serious consideration;
    and it's based on your assessment experience ...

    The first thing I noticed is the strong interdependence of your groupings -
    eg, thematic resonance and message; thematic resonance and composition ...
    while there will always be some interdependence,
    it helps to minimise that where possible, allowing for flexible
    or unforeseen combinations ...
    the next thing I noticed was the similarity in gradient steps
    with the standard LM model (and mine, which was based on that one) ...

    This sets "benchmarks" to ensure effective judging and fairness all around. It's much easier to contest scores when you know exactly how it is judged.
    effective judging and fairness are excellent goals,
    and should be paramount ...
    contesting scores, on the other hand, should be a "no-no" ...
    the judge's decision is final and all that in a challenge or competition -
    very different to a scholastic environment, where contesting a grade is
    a student's right ...

    I use this technique when evaluating essays and the like. It keeps my opinion out of the scoring, so that the writer gets the credit they deserve.
    A nice ideal, Shawn, but impossible to realise - even scoring the objective criteria, each grade is your opinion ...
    based on your interpretation of the benchmarks,
    and your theoretical and practical experience ...

    with respect to originality -
    I agree with what people are saying, but I can also see that originality goes beyond all of that ...
    the reason I included originality in the effectiveness (subjective) component earlier, is that originality can stem from any of the objective applications,
    and is likely to be a composite of two or more of them ...

    that is also why I did not assign specific points to any of the subjective areas,
    because the effectiveness of any piece is going to be a fuzzy (in a quantum sense) region of assessment, determined in part by the objective qualities, and in part by the emotional and aesthetic responses that the whole piece generates ...
    Last edited by Cran; December 17th, 2007 at 12:27 AM. Reason: afterthought
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

    Nature abhors perfection - cats abhor a vacuum!

    "Faith can move mountains - she's a big girl!" (unknown/graffiti)

    If I act like I own the place, it's because I did.





  3. #83
    WF Veteran Shawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    506
    I understand, the scoring system I put forward is weak; but I've never said I was serious about it.

    I am saying that if there is any system, it should be simple, minimal, and gradient. Otherwise, judges will be putting random numbers in based on gut instinct... but having criteria that can be interpreted literally (e.g. "There are two spelling or grammatical errors") and the like will go greatly to improve, number one, the fairness of the judging; two, the effectiveness of the judging; and three, a set of criteria for writers to improve on. Through this, we can spread awareness of phonetics, rhetoric, and independent thought.

    Assuming that we just have a contest and have a winner isn't productive. There can be education in competition and, especially in a small forum like this, there is no limit to how much the writers can improve. I think there's a responsibility in any organized activity we do to spread awareness of our craft, and to promote higher literacy and education.

    Okay, so why clearly spelled out, literal benchmarks? Consistency in scoring. A poem that is properly constructed will get higher points, a poem that is inadequate will get lower points. Nothing to do with opinion. Now, if we introduce subjective categories into the mix, we can get our variation in scoring. These are such things as thematic categories and rhetorical devices.

    So, if we combine the objective and the subjective in a simple, easily understandable, gradient manner, I think there is much more that can be done with this competition other than an ego boost for the winner and to give some members a sense that they are "high brow."

    If we take all the competitors by the hand and show them how they can clarify and improve their work, I believe that we will see a much more dramatic and profound response in the entries. That being said, poets can not improve on opinions; they can only improve on what can be fixed. Meter, device, clarity, and structure.
    Legality does not exclude criminality.

  4. #84
    Baron
    Guest
    Do we yet have any idea who will make up the panel of judges for the next challenge?

  5. #85
    Until Selorian steps in, I doubt we have sufficient consensus to have another competition which is also well judged, unless we continue with the current scoring model till appropriate modifications can be made.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    I understand, the scoring system I put forward is weak; but I've never said I was serious about it.
    OK, Shawn ...
    but let's assume that some of us (at least) are serious about putting the best system in place -
    and that all ideas put forward will be given serious consideration ...

    I am saying that if there is any system, it should be simple, minimal, and gradient. Otherwise, judges will be putting random numbers in based on gut instinct... but having criteria that can be interpreted literally (e.g. "There are two spelling or grammatical errors") and the like will go greatly to improve, number one, the fairness of the judging; two, the effectiveness of the judging; and three, a set of criteria for writers to improve on. Through this, we can spread awareness of phonetics, rhetoric, and independent thought.
    Absolutely ... and for objective components, it's quite straightforward -
    as illustrated by the various assessment options ...
    for subjective assessments, things are less straightforward,
    and there is a danger with being hamstrung by arbitrary benchmarks ...

    Assuming that we just have a contest and have a winner isn't productive. There can be education in competition and, especially in a small forum like this, there is no limit to how much the writers can improve. I think there's a responsibility in any organized activity we do to spread awareness of our craft, and to promote higher literacy and education.
    No argument there; I've said as much in previous discussions ...

    Okay, so why clearly spelled out, literal benchmarks? Consistency in scoring. A poem that is properly constructed will get higher points, a poem that is inadequate will get lower points. Nothing to do with opinion. Now, if we introduce subjective categories into the mix, we can get our variation in scoring. These are such things as thematic categories and rhetorical devices.
    yep, though I called them addressing the theme and addressing the reading ...
    rhetorical devices is a bit problematic -
    applying rhetorical devices is craft - objectively assessible;
    the effectiveness of rhetorical devices used is art - subjectively assessible.

    So, if we combine the objective and the subjective in a simple, easily understandable, gradient manner, I think there is much more that can be done with this competition other than an ego boost for the winner and to give some members a sense that they are "high brow."
    That's the point I believe we are all aiming for ...

    If we take all the competitors by the hand and show them how they can clarify and improve their work, I believe that we will see a much more dramatic and profound response in the entries. That being said, poets can not improve on opinions; they can only improve on what can be fixed. Meter, device, clarity, and structure.
    Again, I think in that respect, we are on the same page ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cran
    Every scored entry should be accompanied by a brief review; consider highlighting strengths and weaknesses, suggestions (if any), and overall appeal.
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

    Nature abhors perfection - cats abhor a vacuum!

    "Faith can move mountains - she's a big girl!" (unknown/graffiti)

    If I act like I own the place, it's because I did.





  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron View Post
    Do we yet have any idea who will make up the panel of judges for the next challenge?
    If the old idea of the previous winner is one of the panel, then yes ...

    otherwise, is it volunteer ... or invitation?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheelz1138
    Until Selorian steps in, I doubt we have sufficient consensus to have another competition which is also well judged, unless we continue with the current scoring model till appropriate modifications can be made.
    I hope this discussion is independent of the actual challenge process -
    in other words, a lack of consensus or decision, or request to admin,
    should not dictate the timetable of challenges ...
    which should proceed according to the administrator's priorities,
    and within the framework recognised by the administrator ...

    the only thing I can see which may be taken into account this time is the Christmas/New Year situation ...
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

    Nature abhors perfection - cats abhor a vacuum!

    "Faith can move mountains - she's a big girl!" (unknown/graffiti)

    If I act like I own the place, it's because I did.





  8. #88
    Baron
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Cran View Post
    I hope this discussion is independent of the actual challenge process -
    in other words, a lack of consensus or decision, or request to admin,
    should not dictate the timetable of challenges ...
    which should proceed according to the administrator's priorities,
    and within the framework recognised by the administrator ...

    the only thing I can see which may be taken into account this time is the Christmas/New Year situation ...
    I hope that you're right because the way this discussion is going if it was dependant on a resolution then it's probably never happen.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron View Post
    Do we yet have any idea who will make up the panel of judges for the next challenge?
    I've not seen a call for volunteers ...
    so I'm guessing it's being handled by invitation ...

    either way, I guess the panel will be announced
    along with the next challenge ...
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

    Nature abhors perfection - cats abhor a vacuum!

    "Faith can move mountains - she's a big girl!" (unknown/graffiti)

    If I act like I own the place, it's because I did.





  10. #90
    uhh, guys ... (you know who you are ...)
    I'm noticing some discussion about poetry and assessment
    in the scoring thread - is that really cool?

    Any chance you can bring the comments, criticisms, etc ... ie, discussions ...
    over here (where they belong), and leave the scoring thread(s)
    for scores and congratulations/commiserations?

    I believe it behooves us, as judges, mentors and responsible members,
    to set the examples we'd like to see ... rather than pushing the envelope
    until some moderator has to step in and act ...

    umm ... another thing I noticed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Selorian
    4. A people’s choice vote is then set up by the PC Director where poems are posted and chosen by the peers of the challenge participants. These winners then move forward to the final judging round. This is expected to be based on the quality of the poem and should not become a popularity contest. The people’s choice vote is open for one week/seven days.
    Perhaps this step should be scrapped?
    For a couple of reasons:
    1. it didn't happen ...
    1a it's not fair to voters if a minimum number of entries are required
    before they are allowed to exercise the option enshrined in the guidelines ...
    2. using a popular vote as an elimination round is not fair to entrants,
    all of whom should be entitled to equal assessment ...
    2a. the two methods are based on different criteria and priorities ...
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

    Nature abhors perfection - cats abhor a vacuum!

    "Faith can move mountains - she's a big girl!" (unknown/graffiti)

    If I act like I own the place, it's because I did.





Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
This website uses cookies
We use cookies to store session information to facilitate remembering your login information, to allow you to save website preferences, to personalise content and ads, to provide social media features and to analyse our traffic. We also share information about your use of our site with our social media, advertising and analytics partners.