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  1. #51
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    I hate to chime in uninvited, but I do really like Cran's idea for scoring. It leaves more room for stylistic differences, and it gives the judges more room to play with. I would rather be scored on general merit than technical aptitude.

    But I'm easy.

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    d.b.

  2. #52
    Member Ilasir Maroa's Avatar
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    But poetry is all about the creative use of the technical aspects. By which I mean you use the techniques of poetry to convey your meaning in a pleasing and powerful way. I think what people are saying is that multiple categories for different kinds of technique are less palatable, because it may force the poems to bejudged on points that aren't part of their intended design. I think that it is important to consider, though, that a poem with so few technical aspects as to be negatively affected by a reasonable group of categories would be a sparse and undercut piece indeed.
    "A plot-driven story is anything with a plot." ~BS
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  3. #53
    Selorian, I just feel like I'm not really adding much to the discussion. I also feel my words are being construed to give the belief that I think the technical aspects to poetry aren't important. I disbelieve that. They are important, but to be judged mainly by that is a flawed system. Poetry is also about feeling and message, which the current system only slightly addresses. A more balanced system would be more appropriate, such as Cran's.

  4. #54
    Member Ilasir Maroa's Avatar
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    Wheelz, you are adding to the discussion. And no one is trying to misconstrue your words. I personally am simply trying to understand your point of veiw. Technical aspects are by no means the be-all and end-all of poetry.

    But the current system has three or five categories that are in essence asking the judges to allocate points on the general merit of the piece. These include: Overall Impact, Originality, Form and Flow, Beauty/Power/Education/Entertainment, and possibly even Polish.

    That makes exactly half of the score dependent on less than technical aspects of the piece. The technical categories are grossly misleading. That is why I have advocated a large widening of these categories to include as many methods and techniques as possible. Assonance and Alliteration, and Rhyme and Meter are gross oversimplifications, and ought to be revised to allow for more subjective, less focused categories of poetic technique.


    Reading through Cran's categories, I see no real improvement on the problems presented in the curren model. Cran's is much more general, of course, but is also less informative as to what certain elements actually represent.

    The reason I have pushed so much to keep as large an amount as possible of points based on technical aspects is that no single person here understands even a majority of poetic techniques.

    I think that maybe the best thing to do would be to modify the current system in the direction of Cran's but include examples of technical aspects that should be loked for by the judges.

    Rather than tell the judges what to look for, I think it would be better to have a small number of more general technical categories, and merely provide supplementary information as to the individual techniques. This avoids putting undue emphasis on technical aspects, while making sure that clever use of said techniques is recognized and adressed in the final scoring.

    I hope I have not put my foot in my mouth here. I am merely offering my opinion on the way to best give proper weight to all relevany aspects of poetry, and am certainly open to alteration of my ideas to better fit the wishes of the majority of participating (in this discussion) poets and administrators.
    "A plot-driven story is anything with a plot." ~BS
    All lines are arbitrary; otherwise, we wouldn't have to draw them. ~Nicholas Vesiri

  5. #55
    As I said before, I haven't added anything to this discussion, in that I can't express the true meaning of anything I've said here. I also think I keep repeating myself, in an attempt to do so, yet failing. I enjoy writing, though know little of the technical aspects of poetry. Let those who are more adept at judging be judges and decide how to judge. I'll just keep writing.

  6. #56
    Ilasir:- The reason you have pushed technical aspects to be used is that no-one understands technical aspects? This seems contradictory, if we don't understand them how can we use them, if the judges don't understand them how can they use them? Do you mean that it would be good to see an exposition of technical aspects to raise the general level of awareness possibly? not wanting to put words in your mouth but that paragraph really stopped me.
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa View Post
    Reading through Cran's categories, I see no real improvement on the problems presented in the curren model. Cran's is much more general, of course, but is also less informative as to what certain elements actually represent.

    The reason I have pushed so much to keep as large an amount as possible of points based on technical aspects is that no single person here understands even a majority of poetic techniques.

    I think that maybe the best thing to do would be to modify the current system in the direction of Cran's but include examples of technical aspects that should be loked for by the judges...
    yes! ... preferably explanatory examples, Ilasir - so we can all learn ...

    that's exactly the sort of thing I was asking for in the earlier discussion -
    I'm not being modest when I say what I don't know about poetry could fill libraries ... I might be good at what I do, but I'm just as unschooled and motivated by personal aesthetics (or inner ear) as, it seems, the next guy ...

    it was for this reason, and the model from which mine was drawn, that I had to be general, and then ask that those with proficiency in the craft of poetry add the details - without such (and I think it might also be true of the general LM guide), the guidelines had to remain flexible enough to suit judges or reviewers of any calibre; ie, those who knew their stuff could apply it ... those going on instinct or intuition could still follow in their fashion ...

    what I did try to do was distinguish the construction (craft, objective assessment) from the effectiveness (art, subjective assessment), and weight the total 60/40 towards the subjective, because that has come through strongly in other discussions about poetry (there were advocates of purely subjective assessment, of course - but I feel that is extreme and counterproductive).

    whatever the model, or score weighting, I think it would be of benefit to identify the general aspects (which can be thought of as the "must have something of") - and within each, the different groupings or possibilities (which can be thought of as the "may have something of") - and, as many of us admit to technical ignorance, perhaps a brief definition of the less familiar terms ...
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

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  8. #58
    Baron
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    If I go to a horse show, horses and riders in the show are not being judged against all those that have ever been, they are judged against the others in a show, likewise with any form of competition. Competitors are judged against other competitors. To suggest that scoring in this competition should apply to anything other than poems entered is just creating an unnecessary complication.

    I like the format used for judging this particular challenge and think that it needs only minor tweaking, the main area being the assonance and alliteration section.

  9. #59
    Member Ilasir Maroa's Avatar
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    I'm not pushing for the awarding of points for use of technical aspects, but for the effective use of technical aspects. And yes Cran, I did mean explanatory examples or else how would they be useful? There are many people of different levels who participate in this conteset, and will possibly particpate in the furture judging of this contest. They should not be barred for being less than the perfect poet, but it is important that they not be excused either. I would never advocate any sort of discrimination against anyone of any level of expertise. I simply think there should be some effort to account for discrepencies in knowledge. As far as i am concerned, just making note of the pertinent techniques is sufficient. No one should be forced to spend their time and effort looking for every single device. As long as the information is there for the participants to reference, then I think the main goal of learning and improvement (and fun) through these competitions has been achieved.

    In reference to my comments on your system, Cran, I was simply noting the responses of those in favor of immediate adoption of the system on the basis of "I like it." I had no intention of disparaging or otherwise making negative remarks about the system itself, which I think does a good job on the subjective side, and leaves room open for objective measurement.
    Last edited by Ilasir Maroa; December 13th, 2007 at 09:59 PM.
    "A plot-driven story is anything with a plot." ~BS
    All lines are arbitrary; otherwise, we wouldn't have to draw them. ~Nicholas Vesiri

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron View Post
    If I go to a horse show, horses and riders in the show are not being judged against all those that have ever been, they are judged against the others in a show, likewise with any form of competition.
    Actually, no ... they are judged against benchmarks (times, faults, heights, etc) - the same is true of many such events (diving, dancing, gymnastics, etc). While entrants compete against each other, they are judged individually - ie, if there were only one entrant, that entrant would still be judged against the benchmarks.
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

    Nature abhors perfection - cats abhor a vacuum!

    "Faith can move mountains - she's a big girl!" (unknown/graffiti)

    If I act like I own the place, it's because I did.





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