Writing Women OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS


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Thread: Writing Women OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS

  1. #1

    Writing Women OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS

    Admin Note: I have moved all the off-topic discussions from Ralph's Writing Women thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying kid View Post
    Yeah but rates of sexual assault of men on women blow the reverse out of the water. So it would make sense to be somewhat more cautious when sexualizing women to a male audience.
    There is no link between writing sexualized themes in books and actual sexual assault in reality. You are trying to rationalize something for political reasons and that is not a rational response. If it's wrong for one gender to do it, it's equally wrong for either gender to do it, yet you don't see anyone telling women they can't stick Fabio on the cover of their romance books. Look at the top romance titles on Amazon and figure out how many of them have shirtless men posed for sexuality. By my quick count, it's at least 8 our of the top 20. Now, let's look at fantasy to see how many chainmail bikini-clad women there are. You might get one or two, but there are more shirtless men there as well than anything resembling sexualized women.

    This is hypocrisy, pure and simple. It's desperately trying to get to a pre-conceived political notion by ignoring the parts that you don't like in favor of the parts that you do.
    Last edited by PiP; June 13th, 2020 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #2
    Patron Foxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying kid View Post
    Its not about the term. It's about the inequality by which the term is applied. Something can be fine in theory, but sexist in practice due to hypocritical application.
    If I went searching for sexism in this way I'd never get anything else done.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There is no link between writing sexualized themes in books and actual sexual assault in reality. You are trying to rationalize something for political reasons and that is not a rational response. If it's wrong for one gender to do it, it's equally wrong for either gender to do it, yet you don't see anyone telling women they can't stick Fabio on the cover of their romance books. Look at the top romance titles on Amazon and figure out how many of them have shirtless men posed for sexuality. By my quick count, it's at least 8 our of the top 20. Now, let's look at fantasy to see how many chainmail bikini-clad women there are. You might get one or two, but there are more shirtless men there as well than anything resembling sexualized women.

    This is hypocrisy, pure and simple. It's desperately trying to get to a pre-conceived political notion by ignoring the parts that you don't like in favor of the parts that you do.
    It doesn't prove much to say "there's no link" and "show me the study" because these things are extremely difficult to study in meaningful numbers. There have been serial killers like Ted Bundy who directly cited porn as a contributing factor in his killings. https://conquerseries.com/serial-kil...ngers-of-porn/

    And while books are unlikely to be a large factor in a porn saturated internet they do contribute to culture. Furthermore when do you see the female tageted books going on about the man's genitals in such ridiculous terms? Some of the stuff you see on the "Men write Women" Twitter feed simply has no equivalence among female targeted fiction.

    Ps, I'm not particularly interested in debating this back and forth - I simply provided the other side of the debate.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxee View Post
    If I went searching for sexism in this way I'd never get anything else done.
    One doesn't need to look very hard when you have major motion picture actors like Daisy Ridley having to comment on it due to the criticism crossing a level of notoriety. Something a male actor has never done or ever had to do.

    I've seen videos from film critics on youtube call Rey a Mary Sue for being for doing too much and Katniss a Mary Sue for doing too little and still being the star. In the same video.

    I've seen people in anime fandoms pile hate on female characters and call them Sues for getting obsolete transformations from like eight seasons ago. The character in my avatar is an example and got alot of hate.

    I haven't had to look hard for it at all. If anything it found me.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxee View Post
    If I went searching for sexism in this way I'd never get anything else done.
    One doesn't need to look very hard when you have major motion picture actors like Daisy Ridley having to comment on it due to the criticism crossing a level of notoriety. Something a male actor has never done or ever had to do.

    I've seen videos from film critics on youtube call Rey a Mary Sue for being for doing too much and Katniss a Mary Sue for doing too little and still being the star. In the very same video.

    I've seen people in anime fandoms pile hate on female characters and call them Sues for getting obsolete transformations from like eight seasons ago. The character in my avatar is an example and got alot of hate.

    I haven't had to look hard for it at all. If anything it found me.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying kid View Post
    I've seen videos from film critics on youtube call Rey a Mary Sue for being for doing too much and Katniss a Mary Sue for doing too little and still being the star. In the same video.
    Just because there are some sexist people out there who will call anyone a Mary Sue, does not mean that no one actually is a Mary Sue. Rey certainly is. Katniss is not. It should have nothing to do with sex - it's just bad writing.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by epimetheus View Post
    Just because there are some sexist people out there who will call anyone a Mary Sue, does not mean that no one actually is a Mary Sue. Rey certainly is. Katniss is not. It should have nothing to do with sex - it's just bad writing.
    Rey certainly wasn't by the end of her first movie. When I have debated fans on this and listed the things Anakin has done in The Phantom Menace, I have universally found that their default position is to attempt to prove why Rey is a Mary Sue, and yet defend Anakin from the critique of being on the same level if not worse by the end of his first movie.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying kid View Post
    Rey certainly wasn't by the end of her first movie. When I have debated fans on this and listed the things Anakin has done in The Phantom Menace, I have universally found that their default position is to attempt to prove why Rey is a Mary Sue, and yet defend Anakin from the critique of being on the same level if not worse by the end of his first movie.
    The prequels are some of the worse writing i've ever seen. I'll give Rey that she was a slightly better character than Anakin - but a slightly better smelling turd is still a turd.

  9. #9
    Patron Foxee's Avatar
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    What I mean is, your focus decides your passion. Sure, there is sexism and I've met it, too, in RL and in print. If I let it control me and spend my time complaining about it then I miss out on this great thread about how to write women.

    Which would be a really interesting thread. If it stayed on topic. Speaking of which:

    Please Stay on Topic.

    Ralph was nice enough to give a few simple rules for posting in this thread.

    Please follow them for the sake of the discussion that has been requested.


    Thanks!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying kid View Post
    Its not about the term. It's about the inequality by which the term is applied. Something can be fine in theory, but sexist in practice due to hypocritical application.
    I think 'Mary Sue' is just one of those 'look how smart I am' labels that people think they can throw around willy-nilly. It's sort of like the term 'virtue signaling', it's a term that has real meaning - or used to - and yet has been abused so often that nobody really knows what it actually means anymore. Apparently showing up to a protest for racial equality is virtue signaling these days.

    We don't talk about toxic femininity very much in writing, not nearly as much as toxic masculinity, and that's really at the heart of the problem IMO. Toxic femininity is generally defined as writing female characters that adhere to traditional feminine traits - characters who are overly moralistic, image conscious, vulnerable, etc. I would say there's a solid argument that writing female characters that are the polar opposite of those things is itself a form of toxic femininity because it is still using the same basic inaccuracies. It is defining women according to the same standard, just in the opposite fashion.

    The 'nympho' thing is an example. The proportion of real women who can be properly described as 'nymphos' is almost certainly a micro-percentage, and yet they are incredibly over-represented in writing and in discussions of writing. But why are there so many nymphos in writing? The answer has to be because we want there to be, which really indicates a complete misunderstanding of what the word 'nympho' means and how many women fit into that category. I feel like a lot of male authors have a hard time distinguishing between a woman who likes to have a lot of sex and a woman whose identity is based on sex.

    Additionally, it seems the bar is set incredibly low for a female character to be sexualized compared to a male one, which is why you will frequently find some reference to a female character's breasts (even a nine year old's, or an old woman's) but hardly ever to a male characters testicles, despite both being significant and cumbersome pieces of anatomy.

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