The rules and regulations - Page 5


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Thread: The rules and regulations

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    what is the difference between “rules” and “regulations” anyway? Is is not tautologous to say “rules and regulations” ?
    I'm going to opine that regulations are a subset of rules differentiated by how they came into being: regulations having come from some sort of official source? If this is the case then it is a single set and "regulations" is redundant.
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. Steven Wright

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ppsage View Post
    I'm going to opine that regulations are a subset of rules differentiated by how they came into being: regulations having come from some sort of official source? If this is the case then it is a single set and "regulations" is redundant.
    Right, so it would be either tautologous or factually incorrect to speak of 'rules and regulations', as any body that is capable of issuing 'regulations' would not also be issuing 'rules' concurrently...
    "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree."

  3. #43
    Also, it was a Donovan song, not a Dylan song. The overall sentiment the is better than the writing, 'stipulation' seems more for rhyme than reason.
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  4. #44
    Today I was considering attacks on so-called filter words. (For example, "I see his relief.") Obviously, they can be misused. So they get attacked, I guess, and people end up giving advice.

    Or, as near as I can tell, some people are bothered by some comma splices. So they say they don't like comma splices. But they never notice the ones they don't mind. Surely some authors overuse adverbs. Or probably anything. So this seems to be a general issue.

    I will add, I think there are cues when someone is over-reacting to misuse. One is that the advice gets pared down to just doing less of whatever. That's pretty meaningless: When would you stop taking this advice? The second is restricting the criticism to whatever's use when it's wrong. That advice applies to everything.
    Last edited by EmmaSohan; June 3rd, 2019 at 06:20 PM.
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  5. #45
    Or, as near as I can tell, some people are bothered by some comma splices. So they say they don't like comma splices. But they never notice the ones they don't mind. Surely some authors overuse adverbs. Or probably anything. So this seems to be a general issue.
    Starting a sentence with 'And' is something most people do from time to time and feel is alright; it is also something that most people can remember being told off for at some time. The grammatical explanations for not doing it are dubious to say the least, it has a long history of use by plenty of eminent writers, and has even been recommended as giving 'strength' to the start of the sentence. The only truly valid explanation for discouraging it that I have come across is that of teachers who say that children who use it will then often use it for every sentence in a story they are writing, it becomes an expression of excitement.
    There is a bit in the Hemingway story 'After the storm' where the effects of the storm are listed by a character who uses 'and' after each thing in the list, instead of commas, which gets this feeling of inevitable events unfolding in rapid succession beautifully. Getting carried away is one thing; thought about and doing 'wrong' stuff deliberately is very much another.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Olly Buckle View Post
    Starting a sentence with 'And' is something most people do from time to time and feel is alright; it is also something that most people can remember being told off for at some time. The grammatical explanations for not doing it are dubious to say the least, it has a long history of use by plenty of eminent writers, and has even been recommended as giving 'strength' to the start of the sentence. The only truly valid explanation for discouraging it that I have come across is that of teachers who say that children who use it will then often use it for every sentence in a story they are writing, it becomes an expression of excitement.
    There is a bit in the Hemingway story 'After the storm' where the effects of the storm are listed by a character who uses 'and' after each thing in the list, instead of commas, which gets this feeling of inevitable events unfolding in rapid succession beautifully. Getting carried away is one thing; thought about and doing 'wrong' stuff deliberately is very much another.
    I start sentences with conjunctions quite often. I think its one of those rules that has generally faded into indifference outside of the classroom, however I do agree with the concern of misuse. These days I always check to see if the sentence sounds the same/better without the conjunction at the start and if it does I delete it as I would any other superfluous word.

    As far as the Hemingway example of 'and' instead of commas - I find it creates a nice conversational feel. Usually in spoken context we will use 'and' liberally to link so its perfect for establishing a casual, almost childlike melody to a narrative.
    "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree."

  7. #47
    Starting a sentence with a conjunction creates the sort of impact one would generally only be seeking in fiction. That's the deal with most of these grammar rules.....they weren't really designed with fiction writing in mind. Or poetry, where they're just laughable.
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. Steven Wright

  8. #48
    Actually I think the deal with most of these grammar rules is that they were invented in the 1800's by grammarians wishing to aggrandise themselves and sell books of instruction. They also thought it would be a good idea to 'stabilise' the language, they didn't realise that all living languages are in constant flux. The ones that were written earlier were often based on Latin, the language of 'learning', and a dead language with a fixed set of rules. Unfortunately they don't work well in conjunction with Germanic languages, like English.
    Visit my website to read and connect to my 'soundcloud', where you can listen to stories songs and more
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  9. #49
    I think the grammar experts might have had a problem. However seems to be an adverb. So how could but be a conjunction?

    However, that's not how it works.
    But that's not how it works.
    It was a bad idea and didn't work. But I can be sympathetic to hope. If you look at my three April Fools posts on grammar, they always end with something like "the issue of how to represent a dramatic pause was referred back to committee." It kind of is a problem; I wish there was some way of solving it. Eventually something should catch on.

    Or, there is a serious problem of when you are in italics and want to italicize something within that. It's probably just wishful thinking to assume unitalicizing works. (It doesn't work on me, and I collect examples where it's ambiguous). King tried using small caps in Misery. It was a good idea, but it didn't catch on. (Hmm, maybe underlining would work.)
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Olly Buckle View Post
    Actually I think the deal with most of these grammar rules is that they were invented in the 1800's by grammarians wishing to aggrandise themselves and sell books of instruction. They also thought it would be a good idea to 'stabilise' the language, they didn't realise that all living languages are in constant flux. The ones that were written earlier were often based on Latin, the language of 'learning', and a dead language with a fixed set of rules. Unfortunately they don't work well in conjunction with Germanic languages, like English.
    I don't think its so much they didn't realize it but more that there were some very real problems with basic comprehensibility occurring. Up until that point English had existed with such lawlessness strong regional dialects often lack mutual intelligibility.

    There's a story about King Charles I (I believe) who received a letter written in English from one of his subjects in far-northern England and it had to be translated into French because the English King, who was born and raised in England, was far more able to understand French than he was a regional version of his own language.

    Point is that I think the idea of standardization was a net positive and inevitable in any case, since you can hardly run a functioning modern nation in a country where there is no lingua franca. But of course a lot of these 'rules and regulations' are pretty irrelevant, especially nowadays.
    "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree."

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