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  1. #21
    Member Rojack79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epimetheus View Post
    It's a reasonable warning. Sounds like you didn't enjoy world building. But it sounds like Rojack is thoroughly enjoying themself, and time you enjoy wasting is never wasted time.
    Honestly I couldn't have said it better myself. I do greatly enjoy world building. It helps keep me focused on a single idea instead of going off on a tangent and then I end up getting sucked into yet another story idea and thus I start work on that idea instead of this one. Been working on this story for a little over 13 years now. About half of that time was research on not just this idea but many others. With my ADHD it made it nearly impossible to focus on a single idea at any given moment.

    Even now while my ADHD has nearly dwindled to nothingness I still struggle from time to time. So I pretty much have to force myself to go the extra mile when it comes to these kinds of things. Write down almost everything so that you forget nothing. Is it extreme? For some yes. For me? No.

    It's just how I do things so I can have the best chance at nailing my stories to the wall ensuring that they stick in my head until I'm finished writing them. When your as messed up in the head as I am you have to get creative with how you do stuff. The normal conventional everyday way of doing this or that just isn't going to cut it for me. Trust me as someone who has a lot of mental illness on both sides of my family it's a wonder that I'm not crazier than I already am.

    I mostly post my stuff up here because I like to discuss what I write with others who know the craft better than I or just to see what others think about my work.
    This might not be my best work but that just means there's room to improve.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by epimetheus View Post
    It's a reasonable warning. Sounds like you didn't enjoy world building. But it sounds like Rojack is thoroughly enjoying themself, and time you enjoy wasting is never wasted time.
    I love world building. But this isn't a world building forum. Rojack's myriad threads discussing his world are redundant to 'Writing Discussion' if he does not actually write. Periodfullstopendofstory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rojack79 View Post
    Honestly I couldn't have said it better myself. I do greatly enjoy world building. It helps keep me focused on a single idea instead of going off on a tangent and then I end up getting sucked into yet another story idea and thus I start work on that idea instead of this one. Been working on this story for a little over 13 years now. About half of that time was research on not just this idea but many others. With my ADHD it made it nearly impossible to focus on a single idea at any given moment.

    Even now while my ADHD has nearly dwindled to nothingness I still struggle from time to time. So I pretty much have to force myself to go the extra mile when it comes to these kinds of things. Write down almost everything so that you forget nothing. Is it extreme? For some yes. For me? No.

    It's just how I do things so I can have the best chance at nailing my stories to the wall ensuring that they stick in my head until I'm finished writing them. When your as messed up in the head as I am you have to get creative with how you do stuff. The normal conventional everyday way of doing this or that just isn't going to cut it for me. Trust me as someone who has a lot of mental illness on both sides of my family it's a wonder that I'm not crazier than I already am.

    I mostly post my stuff up here because I like to discuss what I write with others who know the craft better than I or just to see what others think about my work.
    What craft? You did not answer my previous question - with your timeline in place, are you finally going to write it now?

    Look, I'm honestly not here to piss you off. You seem like a nice guy and reasonably sincere and you have started a number of threads, so I feel inclined to take you seriously... and how I take people seriously is by engaging with them in a discussion I think could help them, me, or hopefully both of us. Want a cold, hard truth? 13 years on a single story for a writer with no published body of work is 100% a waste of time IF the goal is to get this book out there and people reading it. I spent like, eight on mine and that was a waste of time.

    epimetheus's advice is not good advice just because it reinforces what you want to believe. Actually, as a measurement of professional attainment 'time you enjoy wasting is never wasted time' is demonstrable garbage. Enjoying things is pretty well irrelevant - I enjoyed my daydreaming too - assuming you want to actually get somewhere. One might enjoy laying around on my couch not doing anything all day, but it doesn't mean it is not a tragic waste of time.

    Think of it like a businessman who starts an ice cream business that makes a one-dollar-a-year profit. Even if said businessman 'enjoys' running the business; coming up with ideas for new flavors and it's technically 'progress', it's still bad business, a bad return on investment given you have at best maybe seventy years as a writer (assuming that's all you ever want to do) and you need to spend that time writing and getting better at writing. Not frittering away actual years of your life on indulgent 'research'.

    So write the story, not the timeline. This is what pretty much everybody does. No successful writer, certainly not one who hasn't already 'made it', devotes over a decade to development of a single project. They came up with an idea and wrote it as expeditiously as possible. You can do it!
    Last edited by luckyscars; May 19th, 2019 at 02:06 AM.
    "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree."

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    Write the story, not the timeline. This is what pretty much everybody does. No successful writers devoted over a decade to development of a single project. They came up with an idea and wrote it as expeditiously as possible. You can do it!
    Luckyscars REALLY has a good point here, Rojack. You have to get down to it and write it. The only authors I will say that spent more than a decade on a single work were more established, published, and reputable authors that were working on their magnum opus'. You should just write what you need and then edit. It seems like you are going in too much planning for the work; you need to start accelerating it.

    Luckyscars, and me now, are trying to help you. Writing is the answer. Write, write, write!
    ďAs far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being,"

    -Carl Jung

  4. #24
    Member Rojack79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    I love world building. But this isn't a world building forum. Rojack's myriad threads discussing his world are redundant to 'Writing Discussion' if he does not actually write. Periodfullstopendofstory.
    I know its not a world building forum but it is a discussion forum. So i figured that you know we could post up what we have so that we and others could discuss them, not argue over who has the right way of writing a book.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    What craft? You did not answer my previous question - with your timeline in place, are you finally going to write it now?
    I honestly thought i did answer this in one of my previous post's. I plan on working on my outline as a soft first draft and then when that's all done i can actually start writing the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    Look, I'm honestly not here to piss you off. You seem like a nice guy and reasonably sincere and you have started a number of threads, so I feel inclined to take you seriously... and how I take people seriously is by engaging with them in a discussion I think could help them, me, or hopefully both of us. Want a cold, hard truth? 13 years on a single story for a writer with no published body of work is 100% a waste of time IF the goal is to get this book out there and people reading it. I spent like, eight on mine and that was a waste of time.
    And you keep on assuming that all of my time has been a waste for me. It hasn't been one. As i said before all of this was vital for me to come to grips with my ADHD and to make me a better writer.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    epimetheus's advice is not good advice just because it reinforces what you want to believe. Actually, as a measurement of professional attainment 'time you enjoy wasting is never wasted time' is demonstrable garbage. Enjoying things is pretty well irrelevant - I enjoyed my daydreaming too - assuming you want to actually get somewhere. One might enjoy laying around on my couch not doing anything all day, but it doesn't mean it is not a tragic waste of time.
    I have to refute you there on the basis that this argument is based on your own reasoning instead of the majority of writers out there. I have to have a passion for what i write otherwise i can't really get in the zone to write. I've tried. It didn't work. I ended up in a two year long writers block over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    Think of it like a businessman who starts an ice cream business that makes a one-dollar-a-year profit. Even if said businessman 'enjoys' running the business; coming up with ideas for new flavors and it's technically 'progress', it's still bad business, a bad return on investment given you have at best maybe seventy years as a writer (assuming that's all you ever want to do) and you need to spend that time writing and getting better at writing. Not frittering away actual years of your life on indulgent 'research'.
    And i did do some writing. I have two full length novel's under my belt. Sure there just fan fiction but there still a combined word count of 175,000 words. So yes i have practiced and honed my skills at writing and i can fairly say that I've come a long way from when i first started.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    So write the story, not the timeline. This is what pretty much everybody does. No successful writer, certainly not one who hasn't already 'made it', devotes over a decade to development of a single project. They came up with an idea and wrote it as expeditiously as possible. You can do it!
    And I once again have to refute you here. There have been so many authors in the history of the world I'm supremely confident that there have been other's who've spent just as much time if not longer on there work. Look I'm not just some person who decided to just do this one day. It took me a long time to find my way to the world of writing. Hell i even got to meet my longtime idle R.L. Stine and he even told me to not rush through the writing process. He told me to write down my thought's and always have notes to go back to. That was a few year's ago and i still take that advice to heart. I do plan on writing this series but I can't for the life of me understand why you feel so vehemently entitled to sit here and criticize the way i write without even bothering to take into account the fact that I'm not like everyone else. Everyone has there own unique way of doing what they love to do. You have you'rs, George R.R. Martin has his, and R.L. Stine has his own way. Even Stephen King doesn't write his books the normal way as you call it. I don't find it a waste of time to plan out my stories to the last detail especially if it helps me get my story done in the manner that i want it done. I respect your opinion and your wisdom in the craft of writing but i can't just sit back and not plan my book out just because you seem to think of it as a waste of time and energy. I posted this topic here because this was supposed to be a discussion on writing, specifically it was supposed to be a discussion on how i could make sure to not mess up my timeline. This wasn't supposed to be a debate over how one person decides to write their book.
    This might not be my best work but that just means there's room to improve.

  5. #25
    Member Rojack79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bard_Daniel View Post
    Luckyscars REALLY has a good point here, Rojack. You have to get down to it and write it. The only authors I will say that spent more than a decade on a single work were more established, published, and reputable authors that were working on their magnum opus'. You should just write what you need and then edit. It seems like you are going in too much planning for the work; you need to start accelerating it.

    Luckyscars, and me now, are trying to help you. Writing is the answer. Write, write, write!
    And I greatly appreciate his and anyone else's advice but would it be to much to ask that he not act all high and mighty about it? There is no one supreme way to create art. And at the end of the day that is what writing is. It is an art form and everyone has there own unique way of creating and producing there art. Mine just took me a lot longer to get my stride going than most.
    This might not be my best work but that just means there's room to improve.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Rojack79 View Post
    And I once again have to refute you here. There have been so many authors in the history of the world I'm supremely confident that there have been other's who've spent just as much time if not longer on there work. Look I'm not just some person who decided to just do this one day. It took me a long time to find my way to the world of writing. Hell i even got to meet my longtime idle R.L. Stine and he even told me to not rush through the writing process. He told me to write down my thought's and always have notes to go back to. That was a few year's ago and i still take that advice to heart. I do plan on writing this series but I can't for the life of me understand why you feel so vehemently entitled to sit here and criticize the way i write without even bothering to take into account the fact that I'm not like everyone else. Everyone has there own unique way of doing what they love to do. You have you'rs, George R.R. Martin has his, and R.L. Stine has his own way. Even Stephen King doesn't write his books the normal way as you call it. I don't find it a waste of time to plan out my stories to the last detail especially if it helps me get my story done in the manner that i want it done. I respect your opinion and your wisdom in the craft of writing but i can't just sit back and not plan my book out just because you seem to think of it as a waste of time and energy. I posted this topic here because this was supposed to be a discussion on writing, specifically it was supposed to be a discussion on how i could make sure to not mess up my timeline. This wasn't supposed to be a debate over how one person decides to write their book.
    I have been on this forum a long time either actively contributing or casually lurking and I have seen plenty of people fixate on this kind of meandering. Including myself. So I thought you would be open to a gentle nudge.

    I have NOT at any point said there is only one way to write - I would never say that. You have painfully twisted what I have said. I don't say there is one way to write. But...that does not mean, however, there aren't certain approaches better than others. 'Write a lot' is pretty universal, dare I say indisputable, as wisdom. And you're not writing, by your own admission...

    Put aside that 175,000 words isn't very much at all, not if we're talking the level of practice needed to go from novice to expert, an outline is not a 'soft draft' any more than a cube of cheese is a banquet. A timeline isn't writing. Discussing monsters, armor, whatever, is not writing. So no, I have not criticized the way you write because you're not writing. You are planning, a totally different activity. How many words of this story did you write yesterday? Actual story? What about last week? Last month? Last year? None. The answer is none. If the answer is not 'none' then please do prove me wrong - I've given you a great opportunity to make me look really silly!

    I absolutely promise you that R.L Stine would probably hate to hear that his one-time advice to 'take one's time' is in 2019 being used by one of his fans as justification to write no original content in thirteen years of trying. Thirteen years! Planning! For one fairly conventional and likely not incredibly long novel! My god, man, thirteen years ago I wasn't even writing - I'd written basically nothing and was more or less uninterested in bothering. Since then I have written three novels and easily hundreds of short stories, and I am by no means a fast nor productive writer compared to most successful writers. But you have still have an outline, a draft, probably several rewrites, editing, beta reading, more editing ahead of you? Well all I'm saying is you may want to rethink that 'slow and steady' thing, because if this book doesn't work out...then at the rate you are going you'll probably be eighty before you get to try something else.

    But you know what? Okay. I'm not here to attack or belittle you and your attitude accusing me of that is frankly disappointing. I got into this thread trying to help and you seem absolutely disinterested in anything other than to create an echo chamber of discussion. Discussion within the strict parameters of what you want people to talk about. That's fine. I will reserve further value judgments and not ruin your fun. Have a good day.
    Last edited by luckyscars; May 19th, 2019 at 07:21 AM.
    "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree."

  7. #27
    Mentor Megan Pearson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojack79 View Post
    Mine just took me a lot longer to get my stride going than most.
    Hey, Rojack. I, too, have held a very hectic job that limited the time I could spend writing, so I hope you'll take this as a sympathetic appeal. After skimming many of the posts here, one question keeps coming to mind. Do you like what you've written? If so, then it doesn't really matter what anybody thinks about how long it takes to get there. You've stuck with it. A lot of people don't. Kudos.

    About taking one's time, I think it was in the preface to Monte Walsh where I read that Jack Schaefer had written a number of short stories over a number of years he had previously published independently of each other before deciding to unite them together into a book. That reliable source, Wikipedia, recounts how Edgar Allen Poe took anywhere from a day to ten years to write The Raven. Mark Twain took seven years to write Huckleberry Finn. Tolkien labored 12 years to write The Hobbit. Because of these examples, I don't think it's a fair assessment of any work to judge it by the length of time taken in producing it.

    Now, I'd take the great editor Sol Stein's advice: create a plan (ahem--time schedule!) to wrap it up and finish it. If you want to publish this--and I didn't get the sense from what I read that publishing is currently your goal--but should it become your goal, then you have to plan on how to do that. Set yourself a deadline. There are any number of writing references available, such as any of the 'how to write a novel in X-amount of days' type books, that can help you sift through how to better organize what you have so you can meet your deadline. These are just some ideas, and there are certainly more out there.

    Cheers!

    Megan
    "A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
    ~ John A. Shedd


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Megan Pearson View Post
    About taking one's time, I think it was in the preface to Monte Walsh where I read that Jack Schaefer had written a number of short stories over a number of years he had previously published independently of each other before deciding to unite them together into a book. That reliable source, Wikipedia, recounts how Edgar Allen Poe took anywhere from a day to ten years to write The Raven. Mark Twain took seven years to write Huckleberry Finn. Tolkien labored 12 years to write The Hobbit. Because of these examples, I don't think it's a fair assessment of any work to judge it by the length of time taken in producing it.
    *Unzips lips*

    *Whispers*

    The important difference is none of those writers spent thirteen years 'researching' and accomplishing nothing else while simultaneously insisting they were 'writing'.

    *zips lips again*
    "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree."

  9. #29
    Member Rojack79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    I have been on this forum a long time either actively contributing or casually lurking and I have seen plenty of people fixate on this kind of meandering. Including myself. So I thought you would be open to a gentle nudge.
    You call this
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    (Look, great, but how much of this stuff is going to be in your story? I mean actually in your story, not maybe mentioned in a line here or there or in some imagined epilogue?

    Probably not much.

    You'll probably say I'm wrong. Maybe, but I bet I'm not. See, there's this Murphy's Law thing that usually happens when people plan out their world where no sooner do they start writing and actually trying to use the stuff they've spent hours, days, weeks or sometimes (god help us) months or years planning they realize it doesn't actually gel. Like, none of it.

    I was recently listening to one of those university "A Conversation With Author X" and the author was George RR Martin. There's a guy who has an insane level of world-building and history. He was asked about this a lot and basically was adamant that YOU DON'T WRITE THE HISTORY FIRST. He said when he began 'Game Of Thrones' he started writing with nothing more than a single scene in mind (the first chapter with dire wolves) and planned nothing. What's more he said if he had, he would have probably never got the books written. It would have overwhelmed him.

    Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't plan anything but based on this post and the now several threads you have started over the last few days revolving around similar stuff - planning details and background, not writing story and substance - I would suggest you maybe consider not devoting too much further time to development start writing the story.

    This isn't a history class. There's only so much 'slow and steady' lets-figure-out-everything-down-to-the-color-of-the-curtains quote-unquote PLANNING that you should be doing in lieu of writing.

    There'll be plenty of time for the rest, as Martin said, once you get into the story a little more. But setting yourself up with an extremely detailed (and therefore extremely rigid) history with nothing yet written is back assward.

    Of course, you're free to argue I am wrong and I expect you probably will. I am merely trying to save you time and frustration. I spent years on this kind of stuff myself and wish I had not.)
    A gentle nudge? You come into a discussion about my timeline and begin to criticize me devoting some time, Not the whole thirteen year's mind you as i said i spent thirteen year's working on multiple projects before finally settling down on one, and you really don't expect me to say anything about this at all? As I said before I didn't start this thread to argue but if you come in here and say something to the effect of "oh you silly boy you don't need to do all this planning for your story." How exactly do you want me to respond? You aren't me. You haven't lived my life. You know literally nothing about me but what I say on here and yet you act like you know all about me and how i work or operate. Wan't to know a little about me so you actually have something to criticize here you go. I was born 4 months to early. It is literally a miracle that i survived at all. After that I was constantly in and out of the hospital for several year's each time with a life threatening illness of some kind or another. After five year's of this my life normalized except for the ADHD, asthma and the fact that my immune system was so crippled that a simple sneeze could kill me. Then school came around. Normal school was a nightmare. I was constantly picked on by bullies and it got so bad that I had to be taken out of normal school and get home schooled. Skip ahead another 8 years and now i'm in high school. It wasn't the best but it wasn't the worst. I struggled like most others but in the end I graduated and found my calling in life. I knew that I wanted to be a writer. So I made my plan's. But low and behold life doesn't just let us pursue our dreams all willy nilly. I had a life to live and a job to not only find but keep for more than a year. So no I didn't have endless hours to devote to writing back then. I instead did what i could, but thanks to all the constant distractions and life happening everyday I could do little more than jot down my ideas as they came to me. So yeah I haven't had some privileged life were i could devote hour's of my time to my writing. Sorry for that but what can you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    I have NOT at any point said there is only one way to write - I would never say that. You have painfully twisted what I have said. I don't say there is one way to write. But...that does not mean, however, there aren't certain approaches better than others. 'Write a lot' is pretty universal, dare I say indisputable, as wisdom. And you're not writing, by your own admission...
    I literally just told you of a 100,000 word story i'm still working on right now. It has two chapter's left until it's done. Now is it this story no it's not. But it still counts as something which is better than nothing. And I'm sorry but if you think the same approach to writing will 100% work for everyone then you have some grand assumptions about the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    Put aside that 175,000 words isn't very much at all, not if we're talking 'lifetime mileage' (I have written just over 80,000 words of short fiction since January 1 of this year, to put that in perspective...), an outline is certainly not a 'soft draft' any more than a cube of cheese is a banquet. A timeline isn't writing. Discussing monsters, armor, whatever, is also not writing. I have not criticized the way you write because you're not writing. You are planning, planning is not writing. How many words of this story did you write yesterday? Actual story? What about last week? Last month? Last year? None. The answer is none. If the answer is not 'none' then please do prove me wrong. I've given you a great opportunity to make me look really silly!
    Are you really going to sit here and say that my 175,000 words mean nothing in the grand picture of my life? Wow... That right there is just sad. That you can sit there and think that just because I've written nothing on my first story idea means that my other work is irrelevant is just sad. If you want to look silly well there you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    I absolutely promise you that R.L Stine would hate to hear that his one-time advice to 'take one's time' is in 2019 being used by one of his fans as a factor in a decision to spend THIRTEEN YEARS on a story. Thirteen years...with not even a first draft to show for it! I mean, come on now, thirteen years of planning! For one fairly conventional and likely not incredibly long novel! Thirteen years! My god, thirteen years ago I wasn't even writing...I'd written basically nothing and was more or less uninterested. Since then I have written three novels and easily hundreds of short stories, and I am by no means a fast or productive writer compared to most people. You have still have an outline (apparently), a draft, probably several rewrites, editing, beta reading, more editing ahead of you. So, all I'm saying is you may want to rethink that 'slow and steady' thing, because if this book doesn't work out...then at the rate you are going you'll probably be eighty before you get to try something else.
    Three novel's great in thirteen year's. I've written two in the past 3 while battling writer's block for a third after getting a third of the way through with it. Don't try and pull number's out on me buddy. I personally don't care how grandiose you think you are with this. I know I have what it takes to be a great writer but if all's you can do is just sit there and belittle me over trivial things that you don't think are relevant then that just goes to show how closed minded you really are.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckyscars View Post
    But you know what? Okay. I'm not here to attack or belittle you and your attitude accusing me to that effect is disappointing. I got into this thread trying to help and you seem absolutely disinterested in anything other than to create an echo chamber of discussion. Discussion within the strict parameters of what you want people to talk about. That's fine. I will reserve further value judgments. Have a good day.
    Really I couldn't tell because of all the other crap you've spewed at me previously. Case and point all of your high and mighty talk above is a great example. And yeah my thread of discussion is strict because I created for that exact purpose, to talk about a timeline I created for a story i'm writing. Not for people to ague over who's right and who's wrong. But I guess if that means that I'm just some bully who'll baggier people into talking about just what I want then fine. Think of me what you will.
    This might not be my best work but that just means there's room to improve.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan Pearson View Post
    Hey, Rojack. I, too, have held a very hectic job that limited the time I could spend writing, so I hope you'll take this as a sympathetic appeal. After skimming many of the posts here, one question keeps coming to mind. Do you like what you've written? If so, then it doesn't really matter what anybody thinks about how long it takes to get there. You've stuck with it. A lot of people don't. Kudos.

    About taking one's time, I think it was in the preface to Monte Walsh where I read that Jack Schaefer had written a number of short stories over a number of years he had previously published independently of each other before deciding to unite them together into a book. That reliable source, Wikipedia, recounts how Edgar Allen Poe took anywhere from a day to ten years to write The Raven. Mark Twain took seven years to write Huckleberry Finn. Tolkien labored 12 years to write The Hobbit. Because of these examples, I don't think it's a fair assessment of any work to judge it by the length of time taken in producing it.

    Now, I'd take the great editor Sol Stein's advice: create a plan (ahem--time schedule!) to wrap it up and finish it. If you want to publish this--and I didn't get the sense from what I read that publishing is currently your goal--but should it become your goal, then you have to plan on how to do that. Set yourself a deadline. There are any number of writing references available, such as any of the 'how to write a novel in X-amount of days' type books, that can help you sift through how to better organize what you have so you can meet your deadline. These are just some ideas, and there are certainly more out there.

    Cheers!

    Megan
    Honestly thanks for this Megan. I did have a schedule when my job at McDonald's slowed down and actually had a somewhat reliable scheduled but due to the way McDonald's worked I couldn't really do much in terms of budgeting my time. I did actually work on a deadline with my fanfiction projects and it worked out great. Got one story done in less than 2 maybe even 3 weeks. 75,000 words but sadly no editor's. It make me cringe to read my own work but i got it done. I actually have a few writing books that I've read over the years and find myself going back to from time to time. Also publishing is probably the second thing on my mind at this point. Right now i just want to get this story going.
    This might not be my best work but that just means there's room to improve.

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