Brexit. Discussion Only.

Read our latest author interview on Flashes >>HERE<< .

Page 1 of 22 12345678911 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 220

Thread: Brexit. Discussion Only.

  1. #1

    Brexit. Discussion Only.

    Why?

  2. #2
    Because leavers have an island mentality?
    Hidden Content

    Learn more about poet, T.L. Murphy and his recently published poetry book
    'Hidden Content '.
    Check out his interview
    <<Hidden Content >>






  3. #3
    We weren't asked whether we wanted to join the EU, so when we were asked whether we wanted to leave we just set the record straight, that so far as we were concerned we never joined. The EU is a very different thing from the old Common Market.

    It is the same mentality as that of Southerners in the USA who deny that they lost the civil war there because there never was one. There was a "war of northern aggression" but that just petered out apparently. In fact even the northerners seemed unsure whether they were at war or not in the end. During a period when they were claiming that the southerners were just criminals within a country that wasn't at war they were also claiming the right to impound and search British ships under the terms of war. The British government denied them this right on the grounds that they couldn't identify anyone that they were at war with if the southerners were to be regarded just as criminals. In the House of Lords the British government declared that they would continue to recognise the southerners' independent rights until the northerners admitted that they were no longer at war with anyone and the country was united. The northerners also declared that they would pursue southern criminals escaping across the border into British territory in Canada until the British government pointed out that that would itself constitute an act of war against Britain.

    It doesn't make sense to make a decision without asking someone's opinion and then later ask them what you should do because you did that. The question is not why we want to leave the EU but whether we actually ever wanted to join it. At least, that is how some of us regarded that referendum.
    'Sharing an experience creates a reality.' Create a new reality today.
    'There has to be some give and take.' If I can take my time I'm willing to give it.
    'The most difficult criticism that a writer has to comprehend is silence.' So speak up.

  4. #4
    Member Guard Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Anywhere but here.
    Posts
    1,499
    Rob, who have you been talking to from the southern U.S.?

    I was born and raised here, and I don't know anybody who'll claim there was no war, or that the south didn't lose.

    Hell, Lee surrendered. That means somebody lost. Since Lee was a General... well, must'a been a war, 'cause it sure as hell wasn't a football game.


    G.D.
    Leave it be and it won't bother you.
    Screw with it, and it'll eat you alive.

    Soon enough, nations will play second fiddle to corporations.

    "The world is not what we wish it to be; it is what it is."
    "Freedom is the value, not protection."

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PiP View Post
    Because leavers have an island mentality?
    but what's their actual complaint?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
    We weren't asked whether we wanted to join the EU, so when we were asked whether we wanted to leave we just set the record straight, that so far as we were concerned we never joined. The EU is a very different thing from the old Common Market.
    WARNING: Contains a little moderately offensive language.

    I voted to remain in the EU.

    Casting my mind back to 1975 now so memory may be unreliable.

    I believe that Ted Heath took us into the EEC (Common Market) in 1973 (or 74) which was then a trading bloc of six other nations. He did this without a referendum, but the next (Labour) government did call a referendum in 1975 to ask the people if they wished to continue with it.

    Apparently, ever-closer political union was an eventual goal, even back then, and there is paperwork that backs this up. However, it wasn't highlighted and indeed, there may well have been efforts to suppress such information. This was far easier to do in a pre-internet era.

    When taking into account the UK's economic problems in the early/mid-70s, it's not surprising that a 'safety in numbers' attitude was prevalent, and the electorate voted to stay in the EEC by some margin. This was also helped by the consequences of oil quadrupling in price in a very short time. There were severe, albeit temporary, supply problems and application forms appeared to apply for petrol rations, though the problems eased a little and ration books were never issued.

    Anyway, although I voted Remain, I do concede that the electorate may have felt under pressure at the time of the 1975 referendum, and that only those who made a point of studying such things would have been aware that far closer political union was an eventual goal.

    Having written that, if there were to be a second referendum, I suspect that it would have been better to have it far sooner than 2016 - perhaps around 1990, shortly before that debacle with the ERM (exchange rate mechanism). The issues should have been laid out transparently, no convenient suppressing or highlighting, with honesty and integrity. And here is where we have a problem with the UK political system. Generally, politicians are so used to cheating, lying, and evading questions, most of them would likely have nervous breakdowns if they did something radical like telling the truth more than once per day. No system is perfect, but it would have been healthier to adopt a Scandinavian style of discussion about such important changes. But we are so used to class warfare, confrontation, and downright bloody-mindedness, having a reasonable discussion between rulers and citizens is practically alien. It's not in our genes. The roots of this possibly lie in the years of our Industrial Revolution when Britain was possibly the richest economy in the world and people shat in wooden buckets. It's why we hoot with derision when someone talks about 'trickle-down economics'. To a Brit that means 'being pissed on from a great height.

    I digress. I seem to have outJustRob'd JustRob

    In the UK we have a 'first past the post' voting system. This means that if you live in an area where your political view is greatly in the minority, your vote counts for nothing. Ever. With referenda, this is not the case. For many people, this was the first time in their lives that their vote would count. And boy, were they going to stick it up the ruling class who preside over a system that they believe has failed them. The main flaw in that logic is that political systems always make sure that the ones who are squeezed hardest are those at the bottom of the pile.

    There is no problem that capitalism cannot resolve - by shitting on the working class.

    I believe that the vote to leave the EU was a symptom of widespread mistrust that goes back generations and is endemic. It's not a recent quirk.

    Although I voted to remain, I understand why leave won by a narrow majority. There are issues about the EU that I dislike too, but I believe we are better off in than out. I suppose I'm what you might call a soft Remainer. I see myself as an internationalist, but despise much of what unchecked capitalism seems to stand for.

    I hope I haven't breached the 'no debating' ethos of this site. I am merely stating where I am with this. I'm not trying to persuade others of the rightness of my perceptions.


  7. #7
    Wɾʇ∩9 bdcharles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    In a far-distant otherworld.
    Posts
    2,970
    Blog Entries
    4
    Why what, sorry? Why talk about it? Why leave? You know, to me, the actual concept of leaving the EU is not without merit. If it costs money to stay in there, then there's a potential savings to at least be costed out. If we have some super whizz bang new innovations that the EU would stifle, then OK. The EU is far from flawless. But my issue is that none of this was put out there as the reason for leaving. I have no faith that the Leave movement have any of this as their incentives, preferring scare tactics and out-and-out fabrications before cashing in on the ensuing uncertainty. But really, none of this should have been put to a referendum. By and large people are simply not well-enough informed or sufficiently responsible (remember Boaty McBoatface?) to make a decision of this magnitude. Now we have a future driven by people that took in the rhetoric but who in far too many instances are not going to have to actually live through it, leaving that particular joy to the people that never wanted it (source). Rather cynically, it was only put as a referendum item so David Cameron could keep his job, which he bailed on when that backfired (he was a Remainer). I know of very few businesses that support it so I cannot see any economic benefit. The Queen should step in at this point or maybe we should divide the country down the middle and yes I'm totally going to write a story about that OMG plot bunnies plot bunnies!!!


    Hidden Content Monthly Fiction Challenge


    Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror which we are barely able to endure, and are awed,
    because it serenely disdains to annihilate us.
    - Rainer Maria Rilke, "Elegy I"

    *

    Is this fire, or is this mask?
    It's the Mantasy!
    - Anonymous

    *

    C'mon everybody, don't need this crap.
    - Wham!





  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcharles View Post
    Why what, sorry? Why talk about it? Why leave? You know, to me, the actual concept of leaving the EU is not without merit. If it costs money to stay in there, then there's a potential savings to at least be costed out. If we have some super whizz bang new innovations that the EU would stifle, then OK. The EU is far from flawless. But my issue is that none of this was put out there as the reason for leaving. I have no faith that the Leave movement have any of this as their incentives, preferring scare tactics and out-and-out fabrications before cashing in on the ensuing uncertainty. But really, none of this should have been put to a referendum. By and large people are simply not well-enough informed or sufficiently responsible (remember Boaty McBoatface?) to make a decision of this magnitude. Now we have a future driven by people that took in the rhetoric but who in far too many instances are not going to have to actually live through it, leaving that particular joy to the people that never wanted it (source). Rather cynically, it was only put as a referendum item so David Cameron could keep his job, which he bailed on when that backfired (he was a Remainer). I know of very few businesses that support it so I cannot see any economic benefit. The Queen should step in at this point or maybe we should divide the country down the middle and yes I'm totally going to write a story about that OMG plot bunnies plot bunnies!!!
    I actually wrote a very tiny piece about a 50-metre wide tract of land from Scotland to London that should be known as the Stanstead corridor (after Danzig). To avoid the east of the country being cut off, small international areas could be set aside near the A1 where unicorns can graze in peace, a sort of DMZ


  9. #9
    @ Pip. While I will concede the merit of your point, I see the situation as a lot more complex. Leavers are seriously faction riddled, hence the ugly scenes in parliament.

    @ JustRob. I can see how the injustice of having your life arranged without consulting you is causing a level of frustration that requires some kind of action, I just don't understand why anyone would vote to wreck their own lives and the lives of countless others.

    @ Guard Dog. I can understand your reluctance to let history be revised to support a dodgy deal. I wish more people would keep pointing out that facts are not malleable.

    @ Kevin. They don't have a complaint, just an emotional response to what is akin to being groomed by some unbelievably barefaced opportunists.

    @ Phil istine. Th UK has by accident ended up with the sweetest deal imaginable, it wasn't what we voted for or what we expected but it has made us one of the top six countries in the world and now we are going to deliberately chuck our good fortune away and slide down the league.

    @ bdcharles. The EU is far from perfect, so either we leave it or try to fix what we can. Leaving is mad, we voted Nigel Farage in as our fixer. You couldn't make this up.

  10. #10
    Member Guard Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Anywhere but here.
    Posts
    1,499
    Quote Originally Posted by bazz cargo View Post
    @ Guard Dog. I can understand your reluctance to let history be revised to support a dodgy deal. I wish more people would keep pointing out that facts are not malleable.
    Eh.. when you've walked through as many civil war battlefields, graveyards, and museums as I have, and seen so many dangerous items and tombstones from that period... ya kind'a have to believe that something happened that was a fair bit more than just a harsh disagreement or a game. *shrug*

    There's also a few letters still laying around that point out the flaw in some people's thinking as to the exact cause or reason for it as well.

    ...but that's a whole 'nother thread.

    The bottom line is that politics has the habit of twisting facts around to suit some people's opinions and goals.



    G.D.
    Leave it be and it won't bother you.
    Screw with it, and it'll eat you alive.

    Soon enough, nations will play second fiddle to corporations.

    "The world is not what we wish it to be; it is what it is."
    "Freedom is the value, not protection."

Page 1 of 22 12345678911 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
This website uses cookies
We use cookies to store session information to facilitate remembering your login information, to allow you to save website preferences, to personalise content and ads, to provide social media features and to analyse our traffic. We also share information about your use of our site with our social media, advertising and analytics partners.