Brexit. Discussion Only. - Page 38


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Thread: Brexit. Discussion Only.

  1. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The country has ended up without a proper economy after 100 years. The economy is based on what multi-nationals hand out to it. The country is totally addicted to EU money and jumps to every EU decision. ............That money by the way was the UK's hard earned money stolen from them to feed the EU.
    The UK has economically flourished with Europe, having floundered post-war (the Marshall plan a considerable help). The EU is foremost an economic union. It's telling that the City of London, which produces 1/4 of the UKs wealth (one of the financial centres of the world, not to be confused with London itself), voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. It's one thing to want out of the EU for political reasons, but pretending there are economic reasons is disingenuous. The UK will be a little poorer outside the EU in the mid-term. Long-term will depend on to what extent the City of London will retain its international financial services sector - it has many European customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    Every piece of daily propaganda here is EU biased and because they sense and know there is huge objection coming from the people. The government now is trying to bring in extreme hate speech laws to silence any opposition.
    UK media is about evenly split in terms of pro or anti EU bias. Of course, people who lean right decrie the left-wing media bias, while those who lean left decrie the right-wing media bias - humans have evolved to imagine tigers in even innocuous foliage.

    What extreme hate speech laws? Give me a link to a white paper document, or even a green paper document.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The UK has been really lucky and hopefully escaped and couldn't have done this without the chance to vote. ..........Democracy.
    Whether it's lucky depends on your political perspective. But we did vote to join the EEC back in the 70s, the predecessor to the EU. And we will probably vote in 10-20 years time on whether to rejoin whatever the EU becomes. Scotland should get that vote sooner.

  2. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by BornForBurning View Post
    I don't think this is true. Many tyrants are only able to rise to power because of democracy. If it wasn't for the popular vote, they would have been stymied by a hostile oligarchy. Napoleon Bonaparte is a prime example of this.
    My understanding is that Napoleon legitimised his rule using the Plebiscite, but his power was already assured with the Roman Empire inspired Republic he had established. Maybe Hitler would be a better example?


    Quote Originally Posted by BornForBurning View Post
    It arguably isn't compatible with Republicanism but Republicanism is an ideological nonsequitur regardless. Democracy isn't better or worse than any other form of government anyways. Outsource a tiny amount of power to many different people, or a lot of power to a few specific people? There's really no distinction unless the 'popular vote' has some inherent moral capacity that the elites lack. And quite frankly, I don't believe they do. Modern unions are a prime example of this. An evil man will abuse his power whether he's given it over one man or a million men. And if a million evil men are given a little power, it isn't any better than giving it all to one man.
    I agree generally. We might think of democracy as a system of governance, and populism a strategy to leverage that system to its own ends, as opposed to competing methods of governance. However, populism will not focus on rational discourse, it will appeal base instincts, creating a bogey man to set itself up as the saviour of the people.

    Hitler rode in on a wave of populism. I think it has proven itself an unhelpful way of leveraging democracy. I also think this is particularly problematic in the social media age in which various algorithms can manipulate us all the more easily to imagine the bogey man.

  3. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by epimetheus View Post
    The UK has economically flourished with Europe, having floundered post-war (the Marshall plan a considerable help). The EU is foremost an economic union. It's telling that the City of London, which produces 1/4 of the UKs wealth (one of the financial centres of the world, not to be confused with London itself), voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. It's one thing to want out of the EU for political reasons, but pretending there are economic reasons is disingenuous. The UK will be a little poorer outside the EU in the mid-term. Long-term will depend on to what extent the City of London will retain its international financial services sector - it has many European customers.



    UK media is about evenly split in terms of pro or anti EU bias. Of course, people who lean right decrie the left-wing media bias, while those who lean left decrie the right-wing media bias - humans have evolved to imagine tigers in even innocuous foliage.

    What extreme hate speech laws? Give me a link to a white paper document, or even a green paper document.



    Whether it's lucky depends on your political perspective. But we did vote to join the EEC back in the 70s, the predecessor to the EU. And we will probably vote in 10-20 years time on whether to rejoin whatever the EU becomes. Scotland should get that vote sooner.
    I do not live in the UK but in another EU colony.

    The UK may have done just as well or even better if it wasn't in the EU which only came to force in the 90's. The UK joined the 'Common Market' which was a trading block.

    The EU will not be around in 20 years time. It desperately needs the UK or to have total control of it.

    The rest of the EU has desperately begged and offered financial stimulus to the financial sector to desert London and move elsewhere in the past 3.5 years. Ireland especially has been trying mega hard. But nobody will move because they now know outside the EU the financial services sector will explode with business as all the EU regs disappear from them.

  4. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by epimetheus View Post

    Hitler rode in on a wave of populism. I think it has proven itself an unhelpful way of leveraging democracy. I also think this is particularly problematic in the social media age in which various algorithms can manipulate us all the more easily to imagine the bogey man.
    Populism is just one of those 'words' like 'racism' which objectors band around at others they disagree with in an attempt to kill or stifle their argument. It doesn't work and as soon as someone try's this tired out attack formula, it is just an admission of failure.

    Populism is just .....What the people want. If 'the people' want something, then so be it. Because if you claim to be democratic then you have to go with that. If you don't then how can you be democratic?

  5. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The UK may have done just as well or even better if it wasn't in the EU which only came to force in the 90's. The UK joined the 'Common Market' which was a trading block.

    The EU will not be around in 20 years time. It desperately needs the UK or to have total control of it.

    The rest of the EU has desperately begged and offered financial stimulus to the financial sector to desert London and move elsewhere in the past 3.5 years. Ireland especially has been trying mega hard. But nobody will move because they now know outside the EU the financial services sector will explode with business as all the EU regs disappear from them.
    It was just coincidence that the UK economy grew more after joining the EEC? And I guess it would just be coincidence if the UK economy were to struggle if we left the common market?

    Where are you getting your information? I notice you didn't back up your claim that about 'extreme' hate speech laws in the UK. Perhaps you could just show me what data you base your prediction that the EU will no longer exist in 20 years. Kudos for the bold prediction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    Populism is just one of those 'words' like 'racism' which objectors band around at others they disagree with in an attempt to kill or stifle their argument. It doesn't work and as soon as someone try's this tired out attack formula, it is just an admission of failure.

    Populism is just .....What the people want. If 'the people' want something, then so be it. Because if you claim to be democratic then you have to go with that. If you don't then how can you be democratic?
    Populism and racism do not exist? They may well be hijacked by particular interest groups (itself a populist strategy), but that does not mean they do not exist. Some have said this has happened to Black Lives Matter (i don't follow US politics so don't really know) - but US racism is still definitely a problem.

    Democracy is about plurality and voting is just the most basic by which we can engage in the process. The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Hence a discussion, from all sectors of UK society, would be the democratic way to proceed - not 'we got 4% higher in the vote therefore Farage gets to do whatever he wants'.

  6. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by epimetheus View Post
    It was just coincidence that the UK economy grew more after joining the EEC? And I guess it would just be coincidence if the UK economy were to struggle if we left the common market?

    Where are you getting your information? I notice you didn't back up your claim that about 'extreme' hate speech laws in the UK. Perhaps you could just show me what data you base your prediction that the EU will no longer exist in 20 years. Kudos for the bold prediction.



    Populism and racism do not exist? They may well be hijacked by particular interest groups (itself a populist strategy), but that does not mean they do not exist. Some have said this has happened to Black Lives Matter (i don't follow US politics so don't really know) - but US racism is still definitely a problem.

    Democracy is about plurality and voting is just the most basic by which we can engage in the process. The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Hence a discussion, from all sectors of UK society, would be the democratic way to proceed - not 'we got 4% higher in the vote therefore Farage gets to do whatever he wants'.
    Wow! .....Firstly I suggest you 'READ' my posts. I am not in UK. So hate speech laws will apply elsewhere. I never ever said UK.

    Economies grow all the time otherwise you are in trouble. After 46 years you would have least hoped they grew. By how much in or out is just hearsay.

    I never said populism and racism do not exist. All I said is that people say that to stifle and silence others when they do not agree with them.

    Farage has done nothing. He has never had or will have the power to do anything. All that has happened is that people have listened to him.....some agreed .....some didnt. Most are intelligent enough to make up their own minds as what to do. But some can never accept that.

    The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Again somebody is saying they just didnt know what they voted for. Well they certainly did other day and the result was an even bigger...OUT....OUT....OUT!

    Round and round in circles.

  7. #377
    Guys, I've had a gut full of politics and Brexit. It is what it is, so PLEASE let's move on and not dwell on the past.
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  8. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Again somebody is saying they just didnt know what they voted for. Well they certainly did other day and the result was an even bigger...OUT....OUT....OUT!

    Round and round in circles.
    I won't get too involved in this as it's now done and dusted (except for a year or three of negotiating a worse deal than our current one). In the election, 16+ million voted for parties that were either committed to remain in the EU or committed to another referendum. 14+ million voted for parties that were committed to leaving in one shade or another. Although Brexit isn't the only issue in a general election, the 16/14 million figures (it was actually about 1.5 million difference) approximate to what polls were indicating about Brexit since the referendum - that sufficient numbers were having second thoughts for another vote to go the opposite way.

    The real flaw in the UK is the first past the post voting system - I am an advocate of proportional representation. I'm not a recent convert of convenience, because I've believed this since I was old enough to vote (44 years ago). I've maintained this stance even when my party of choice was in office. I would even go as far as to say that FPTP was a major contributor to the discontent that led to Brexit, because it meant that millions of northern-based working class voters could be safely ignored, either because their votes were insufficient to topple the government or because their votes could be relied upon - depending which government was in office.
    For a frame of reference to Americans, it's a bit like a President (any President) gaining office while losing the popular vote, only the UK version of this is more extreme.


  9. #379
    The hang up with the negotiations is that the UK wants the same trade deal they have already.
    But that's like asking for the Cosco discount without actually being a member of Cosco.
    The bottom line is this: If Brexit really does happen, it will mean a crappy trade deal with each of the EU nations.
    Hell hath no fury like a nation scorned. The EU will not cut you a deal as good as the one you have now.

  10. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Rotten View Post
    The hang up with the negotiations is that the UK wants the same trade deal they have already.
    But that's like asking for the Cosco discount without actually being a member of Cosco.
    The bottom line is this: If Brexit really does happen, it will mean a crappy trade deal with each of the EU nations.
    Hell hath no fury like a nation scorned. The EU will not cut you a deal as good as the one you have now.
    No, of course they won't, and what many fail to realise is that we already had the best deal in the EU; they bent over backwards to keep us onside and not leave. Some humorously referred to it as Germany-plus-plus. We didn't join the single currency (we tried, but market forces prevented it in '92), we had an opt-out from the Schengen deal, and we had an ongoing financial rebate. We are now faced with the break-up of the United Kingdom. Although the Scots have been told that they won't get an independence referendum for at least five years, the groundswell north of the border may yet become Britain's Catalonia, and the Northern Irish may well decide that remaining in the EU is sufficient reward for reuniting with the Republic of Ireland. Under the Good Friday Agreement, Ireland doesn't need Westminster's "permission" to initiate a reunification referendum. It would actually require two referenda, one for the North and another for the Republic, and both would have to return a "Yes" for it to happen. The Republic would surely vote to reunify, but the situation in the North is less clear.
    If it doesn't work out, I can always die in a ditch.


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