Brexit. Discussion Only. - Page 37


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Thread: Brexit. Discussion Only.

  1. #361
    Let us just leave the sound bites to one side for a moment.

    Dave put us up for this stupid Referendum to get his party back in power. This is the country who voted for Boaty McBoatface. This is the country that has suffered a decade of Tory austerity. This is the country that is still fighting the Second World war. This is the country that is preposterously racist. This is the country whose newspapers are owned by very wealthy foreigners that have waged long term psychological warfare on our citizens. Of course we are going to vote to leave. The trouble is the cost of leaving is the end of the UK. It is that simple. Which is why we have spent three years going round in circles. The only way we can leave is to force the EU to push us out. What a magnificent triumph for democracy that will be. And such a dramatic change to our lives should be subject to a confirmatory vote. Not to be left to a bunch of frustrated racists without a mandate.

    In these past three years a lot of interesting things have come to light. All of the Leave sound-bites have proven to be rubbish or outright lies. There is a lot of evidence pointing to foreign interference and there is a resurgence of bigotry.

    We cannot return this country to the halcyon days of our youth. We can only hand it on to the next generation. Brexit will take decades to sort out. Our children are not going to thank us for this mess.

    Democracy is far from perfect, it is the best we have. Hitler is not the only monster who rose to power via democracy. This is not in the same league but it is still a mistake and it is not too late to fix it. Mind you, even this dance of daftness has already damaged our economy, reputation and prospects.

    Leaving may not hurt you personally, it is going to wreck a hell of a lot other people's lives. This is not some academic exercise, it will have very serious results. I ask you to consider if the result is worth the price.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The people were asked and given a chance to vote.

    What their opinions and decisions of whether to stay or to leave were probably already made long before all the propaganda started. Whether the decision to leave is better for some people or not so good for others is irrelevant as there will always be winners and losers in all decisions whatever they are.

    Who is right and who is wrong is also totally irrelevant as everything changes with time regardless of decisions made.

    The point is the people were asked a question which was quite simple and they gave their answer.

    If you do not act on that answer you are in big trouble, not just now but forever as long as those people are still living on both sides of the fence. This is because you will never be trusted or be able to regain their trust again.

    Parliament and it's process will be deemed to be rotten and corrupt by the population and will never be trusted on anything by all people.

    What you end up with is a population of people who see that those in charge are not interested in acting on the peoples decisions when voting. So then next time there is a vote, the only people who participate (very few) are the ones who are trying to gain power for their own means and not for the good of the people or country.

    The only way this can be stopped will be to get the masses out voting again which will never happen and those who have gained power will put in measures to stop this ever happening. A simple fixed term Parliament is one example which becomes longer and longer.

    The result is through not acting on the peoples decision whatever it is, you will in fact destroy the democratic process. There are lots of examples around the world of this and none of them are what you call great places.

  2. #362
    He that walk with me through the valley of death shall hear no evil or speak no truth
    The only one who can heal you is you.




  3. #363
    I think we should now have a referendum about having another referendum
    The only one who can heal you is you.




  4. #364
    It's not right or left wing that worries me, but the populism part, which isn't synonymous with democracy.
    I don't think this is true. Many tyrants are only able to rise to power because of democracy. If it wasn't for the popular vote, they would have been stymied by a hostile oligarchy. Napoleon Bonaparte is a prime example of this. It arguably isn't compatible with Republicanism but Republicanism is an ideological nonsequitur regardless. Democracy isn't better or worse than any other form of government anyways. Outsource a tiny amount of power to many different people, or a lot of power to a few specific people? There's really no distinction unless the 'popular vote' has some inherent moral capacity that the elites lack. And quite frankly, I don't believe they do. Modern unions are a prime example of this. An evil man will abuse his power whether he's given it over one man or a million men. And if a million evil men are given a little power, it isn't any better than giving it all to one man.
    Nail it to the Cross

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The country has ended up without a proper economy after 100 years. The economy is based on what multi-nationals hand out to it. The country is totally addicted to EU money and jumps to every EU decision. ............That money by the way was the UK's hard earned money stolen from them to feed the EU.
    The UK has economically flourished with Europe, having floundered post-war (the Marshall plan a considerable help). The EU is foremost an economic union. It's telling that the City of London, which produces 1/4 of the UKs wealth (one of the financial centres of the world, not to be confused with London itself), voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. It's one thing to want out of the EU for political reasons, but pretending there are economic reasons is disingenuous. The UK will be a little poorer outside the EU in the mid-term. Long-term will depend on to what extent the City of London will retain its international financial services sector - it has many European customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    Every piece of daily propaganda here is EU biased and because they sense and know there is huge objection coming from the people. The government now is trying to bring in extreme hate speech laws to silence any opposition.
    UK media is about evenly split in terms of pro or anti EU bias. Of course, people who lean right decrie the left-wing media bias, while those who lean left decrie the right-wing media bias - humans have evolved to imagine tigers in even innocuous foliage.

    What extreme hate speech laws? Give me a link to a white paper document, or even a green paper document.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The UK has been really lucky and hopefully escaped and couldn't have done this without the chance to vote. ..........Democracy.
    Whether it's lucky depends on your political perspective. But we did vote to join the EEC back in the 70s, the predecessor to the EU. And we will probably vote in 10-20 years time on whether to rejoin whatever the EU becomes. Scotland should get that vote sooner.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by BornForBurning View Post
    I don't think this is true. Many tyrants are only able to rise to power because of democracy. If it wasn't for the popular vote, they would have been stymied by a hostile oligarchy. Napoleon Bonaparte is a prime example of this.
    My understanding is that Napoleon legitimised his rule using the Plebiscite, but his power was already assured with the Roman Empire inspired Republic he had established. Maybe Hitler would be a better example?


    Quote Originally Posted by BornForBurning View Post
    It arguably isn't compatible with Republicanism but Republicanism is an ideological nonsequitur regardless. Democracy isn't better or worse than any other form of government anyways. Outsource a tiny amount of power to many different people, or a lot of power to a few specific people? There's really no distinction unless the 'popular vote' has some inherent moral capacity that the elites lack. And quite frankly, I don't believe they do. Modern unions are a prime example of this. An evil man will abuse his power whether he's given it over one man or a million men. And if a million evil men are given a little power, it isn't any better than giving it all to one man.
    I agree generally. We might think of democracy as a system of governance, and populism a strategy to leverage that system to its own ends, as opposed to competing methods of governance. However, populism will not focus on rational discourse, it will appeal base instincts, creating a bogey man to set itself up as the saviour of the people.

    Hitler rode in on a wave of populism. I think it has proven itself an unhelpful way of leveraging democracy. I also think this is particularly problematic in the social media age in which various algorithms can manipulate us all the more easily to imagine the bogey man.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The UK may have done just as well or even better if it wasn't in the EU which only came to force in the 90's. The UK joined the 'Common Market' which was a trading block.

    The EU will not be around in 20 years time. It desperately needs the UK or to have total control of it.

    The rest of the EU has desperately begged and offered financial stimulus to the financial sector to desert London and move elsewhere in the past 3.5 years. Ireland especially has been trying mega hard. But nobody will move because they now know outside the EU the financial services sector will explode with business as all the EU regs disappear from them.
    It was just coincidence that the UK economy grew more after joining the EEC? And I guess it would just be coincidence if the UK economy were to struggle if we left the common market?

    Where are you getting your information? I notice you didn't back up your claim that about 'extreme' hate speech laws in the UK. Perhaps you could just show me what data you base your prediction that the EU will no longer exist in 20 years. Kudos for the bold prediction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    Populism is just one of those 'words' like 'racism' which objectors band around at others they disagree with in an attempt to kill or stifle their argument. It doesn't work and as soon as someone try's this tired out attack formula, it is just an admission of failure.

    Populism is just .....What the people want. If 'the people' want something, then so be it. Because if you claim to be democratic then you have to go with that. If you don't then how can you be democratic?
    Populism and racism do not exist? They may well be hijacked by particular interest groups (itself a populist strategy), but that does not mean they do not exist. Some have said this has happened to Black Lives Matter (i don't follow US politics so don't really know) - but US racism is still definitely a problem.

    Democracy is about plurality and voting is just the most basic by which we can engage in the process. The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Hence a discussion, from all sectors of UK society, would be the democratic way to proceed - not 'we got 4% higher in the vote therefore Farage gets to do whatever he wants'.

  8. #368
    Guys, I've had a gut full of politics and Brexit. It is what it is, so PLEASE let's move on and not dwell on the past.
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  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Biro View Post
    The UK voted for Brexit - but the terms of Brexit weren't defined before the referendum. Again somebody is saying they just didnt know what they voted for. Well they certainly did other day and the result was an even bigger...OUT....OUT....OUT!

    Round and round in circles.
    I won't get too involved in this as it's now done and dusted (except for a year or three of negotiating a worse deal than our current one). In the election, 16+ million voted for parties that were either committed to remain in the EU or committed to another referendum. 14+ million voted for parties that were committed to leaving in one shade or another. Although Brexit isn't the only issue in a general election, the 16/14 million figures (it was actually about 1.5 million difference) approximate to what polls were indicating about Brexit since the referendum - that sufficient numbers were having second thoughts for another vote to go the opposite way.

    The real flaw in the UK is the first past the post voting system - I am an advocate of proportional representation. I'm not a recent convert of convenience, because I've believed this since I was old enough to vote (44 years ago). I've maintained this stance even when my party of choice was in office. I would even go as far as to say that FPTP was a major contributor to the discontent that led to Brexit, because it meant that millions of northern-based working class voters could be safely ignored, either because their votes were insufficient to topple the government or because their votes could be relied upon - depending which government was in office.
    For a frame of reference to Americans, it's a bit like a President (any President) gaining office while losing the popular vote, only the UK version of this is more extreme.


  10. #370
    The hang up with the negotiations is that the UK wants the same trade deal they have already.
    But that's like asking for the Cosco discount without actually being a member of Cosco.
    The bottom line is this: If Brexit really does happen, it will mean a crappy trade deal with each of the EU nations.
    Hell hath no fury like a nation scorned. The EU will not cut you a deal as good as the one you have now.

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