Brexit. Discussion Only. - Page 2


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Thread: Brexit. Discussion Only.

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Guard Dog View Post
    Rob, who have you been talking to from the southern U.S.?

    I was born and raised here, and I don't know anybody who'll claim there was no war, or that the south didn't lose.

    Hell, Lee surrendered. That means somebody lost. Since Lee was a General... well, must'a been a war, 'cause it sure as hell wasn't a football game.


    G.D.
    Not me but our next door neighbour. He is an English jazz trumpet player deeply into that music culture and has also spent most of his life studying the American Civil War simply as a personal pastime. He and his lady have visited pretty well all the battle sites in the US, spending weeks driving across parts of the country seldom if ever visited by tourists. They have of course also visited New Orleans, given their enthusiasm for traditional jazz. While they were in a supermarket in one town the woman at the checkout recognised their Engish accents and announced to all the other shoppers that there were Brits in the shop, which caused considerable excitement. They were even invited to go to the local radio station to be interviewed just so that the locals could hear genuine English accents and opinions. Our neighbours, being typically English and horrified at the idea, made a quick getaway to avoid being in the spotlight like that. So, they definitely managed to find the places that other tourists evidently don't.

    However, the places that they found it difficult to find were the battle sites as many locals just denied that there'd been a civil war or such battles. Even when they visited a civil war museum the curator there mourned the lack of interest that his own countrymen showed in the subject. He showed our neighbour a series of old pictures of prominent people in the war and of course our self-taught British expert could name every one of them to his delight. He said that in contrast when he showed the local youth a film about Abraham Lincoln and asked them what they thought about it they just commented that there wasn't much sex in it.

    The attitude of the British government to the erratic behaviour of the union that I mentioned I got from reports of parliamentary proceedings in The Illustrated London News as I have original copies of that periodical from the years around the end of the war. I acquired these from the clearance of an elderly gentleman's family home and unfortunately someone had already removed the pages relating to the death of Lincoln, but many other details of the war and the people involved were covered and made fascinating reading, even to me.

    So no, I don't have first hand experience of civil war deniers but our neighbours do. Most of my correspondence with any southerner is with an Okie raised on an Oklahoma farm whose ancestor fought for the south. He actually spends some of his time enlightening people about the War of Northern Aggression as seen from the Confederate viewpoint and he also takes part in battle re-enactments. His grandson, who also takes part in the re-enactments, was very unhappy when he was required to play a part in a re-enactment of Lee's surrender, which was probably on the anniversary in 2015.

    My correspondent now works in Washington DC, where amongst other things he does research in the national archives to assist members of the US armed forces and others, including myself in the past as it happens. Of course he lives in Alexandria on the Virginian side of the Potomac in the corner cut out of the DC square to allow the slave trade there to continue for a while longer, but then he is a dyed in the wool southerner. So yes, I agree that some southerners are well versed in the war and even revel in it, but there are certainly those who appear to have a positive aversion to the subject, much like the opposing factions in the Brexit debate here.

    Well, you did ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by bazz cargo View Post
    @ JustRob. I can see how the injustice of having your life arranged without consulting you is causing a level of frustration that requires some kind of action, I just don't understand why anyone would vote to wreck their own lives and the lives of countless others.
    Our first past the post electoral system makes the average voter feel that their vote is unlikely to make any difference, the system being designed to maintain the stability of the major political parties. Hence we do not bother to consider the issues seriously. If we felt that knowing about them personally would make any difference then we might pay more attention to them, but in general our opinions have never had any effect on any issue in British politics and the referendum result was just a flook. The major political parties insist on our electoral system having this effect of potentially allowing government of the country to drift away from the wishes of the majority, so they should stick to their guns and never directly ask for our opinions on anything. They don't need a second referendum now but just the guts to ignore the results of the first.
    Last edited by JustRob; December 28th, 2018 at 01:43 PM.
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  2. #12
    Still lacking any data I'm left to come up with my own conclusions: Rather than pieces of sky raining down upon them (crash! Bang!; ow! Oof!) I'm supposing the island will sink without the last, erhm.. years of continental support. I've always wondered how it is that islands float, dirt being heavy and such.

  3. #13
    OP JustRob. Our first past the post electoral system makes the average voter feel that their vote is unlikely to make any difference, the system being designed to maintain the stability of the major political parties. Hence we do not bother to consider the issues seriously. If we felt that knowing about them personally would make any difference then we might pay more attention to them, but in general our opinions have never had any effect on any issue in British politics and the referendum result was just a flook. The major political parties insist on our electoral system having this effect of potentially allowing government of the country to drift away from the wishes of the majority, so they should stick to their guns and never directly ask for our opinions on anything. They don't need a second referendum now but just the guts to ignore the results of the first.
    Hmmm.... I don't see this as a flook. A lot of media savvy big wheels used some very nasty emotional manipulation to force this result. This is a deliberate, long term, thoroughly cynical and successful form of warfare. None of the leave voters I know are going to change their minds despite the leave campaign being totally discredited. I suspect we are living through Brexit Mania, similar to the Tulip Mania which ended in 1637.

    I still don't know why....

  4. #14
    I doubt the leave voters will change their mind because they don't want to admit they were duped. Only last night I was watching a program about the effect Brexit will have on the Police and sharing information across borders. Then there is NI... what a clusterfuck that will be.
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  5. #15
    Northern Ireland only has a problem because Eire isn't leaving planning to leave the EU as well.

    There may well have been factions who actually wanted or even still want us to leave, but it is also possible that the referendum result was partially a reaction to politicians gambling on the electorate for purely political ends. It was held to prove that the Conservative party stood by the promise made in their election manifesto, the assumption being that the result would be not to leave anyway, so no harm would be done. Equally Theresa May subsequently called a general election in the hope of strengthening her position, but instead she weakened it. I don't think the electorate at large like politicians using them in their political games like this but effectively ignoring them the rest of the time and now parliament is paying the price, having to work hard to dig itself and the country out of the hole that its members themselves have dug. If they stop trying to save the party political system and focus on what is best for the country things should turn out fine, but they have to make the decision between party allegiances and the good of the country it seems.

    As for whether any of us really have strong feelings about our membership of the EU, if I for one did then I would have written to my MP about it, not waited patiently for a referendum, but I didn't. I have written to my MP about other matters and got good results from doing so, so I have faith in local politics working but higher up the chain where party politics prevail matters seem to get more erratic.

    There seem to be similar problems with such inertia in the USA. It is a known fact that large continents drift but small islands don't seem so prone to doing that. We can't go far so long as Eire remains in our way anyway.
    'Sharing an experience creates a reality.' Create a new reality today.
    'There has to be some give and take.' If I can take my time I'm willing to give it.
    'The most difficult criticism that a writer has to comprehend is silence.' So speak up.

  6. #16
    Member Guard Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
    However, the places that they found it difficult to find were the battle sites as many locals just denied that there'd been a civil war or such battles.
    This sounds more like people trying to shoo away tourists than anything, to me.

    Some folks just don't like having people coming around asking questions about things that they personally may not have any knowledge of, or any interest in.

    So, probably not so much deniers as people that are just tired of unwanted attention.




    G.D.
    Leave it be and it won't bother you.
    Screw with it, and it'll eat you alive.

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  7. #17
    WF Veteran Winston's Avatar
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    I'll just never wrap my head around the concept of folks across the water, in another land, dictating the minutia of your daily life.
    That seems grossly inefficient and anti-liberty. But I'm just overly simplistic and partisan. And 'Murican.
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  8. #18
    Member Guard Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston View Post
    And 'Murican.
    Bolding mine.

    Funny, but every time I see this, I think of this guy, since he used the word a lot.:

    Gallagher and English language

    A better, slightly longer version.

    G.D.
    Last edited by Guard Dog; December 28th, 2018 at 08:45 PM. Reason: Added another link.
    Leave it be and it won't bother you.
    Screw with it, and it'll eat you alive.

    Soon enough, nations will play second fiddle to corporations.

    "The world is not what we wish it to be; it is what it is."
    "Freedom is the value, not protection."

  9. #19
    Better let Putin Know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston View Post
    I'll just never wrap my head around the concept of folks across the water, in another land, dictating the minutia of your daily life.
    That seems grossly inefficient and anti-liberty. But I'm just overly simplistic and partisan. And 'Murican.

  10. #20
    WF Veteran Winston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazz cargo View Post
    Better let Putin Know.
    Say I know that guy! Isn't he the convenient "straw man" losers blame every time they can't justify their self-inflicted defeat?
    I mean that was one of the arguments the Stay folks foisted, right? The EU is weaker without GB, therefore, a vote for Leave is a vote for Putin.
    Putin bad, Merkel good. Four legs good, two legs bad.
    Pure logic, that.
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