A question or two if I may - Page 2


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Thread: A question or two if I may

  1. #11
    You can whip me, beat me or just consider me crazy, but I’ve never heard of any of those poets you mentioned, except Thoreau. That said, I’m sure that I’ve missed out on some very eloquently written poems.
    what poets have I heard of-Keats, Longfellow, Shelly, Byron, Ginsburg, Kerouac, and Angelou.

    I hope this doesn’t disqualify my thought on this.
    If you write poetry, you’re a poet. How good you are depends on what your peers, readers say; your willingness to listen to them, and to learn/evolve with and in your poetry.
    "Illegitimi non carborundum " Vinegar' Joe Stilwell

    "Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase." Martin Luther King Jr.

    What you learn in life is important, those you help learn, are more important.

    "They can because they think they can."
    ​Virgil

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools will speak to say something." Plato

    "The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible."
    ​ Mark Twain

    "To those of you who received honors, awards and distinctions, I say well done. And to the C students, I say you, too, can be president of the United States." George W. Bush



  2. #12
    @ Pete_C & sas

    Actually the allusions were erased, but it doesnít matter as I understand and respect others perspectives. Also I touched a raw vein in using poetic devices to try to convey something essential to humanityís longevity, and that without burying the points in metaphors that might make the reader's eyes gloss over. My desire to leave a better world for our grandchildren taking precedence over horse-blinkered adherence to dogmatic focus on communication techniques has been known to alienate some I try whatever I think of to reach beyond the choir.

    My intent in posting this thread was to maybe learn more about the effectiveness of the approach. That by way of a discussion about the wide ranging evolution of poetic expression. I was already aware the form I employed was in wide use in environmental poetry.

    Posting it in the Poetry Workshop yielded more positives on balance. One being clarkís reminding me of Santayanaís Dialogues in Limbo, and the other being sas prodding me to put more feeling in it.

    Few here stepping up to the discussion, I posted the latest version on social media. So far itís been well received, but that mostly by the choir. Thinking of how hard it is to get something so simple through to the non-choir prompted me to add one of the latter verses:

    Sashaying along the streets of Pompeii,
    our steadfast way naÔve to natural sway.
    Oil and water seething at every crossway.

    Thank you both for your thoughts, much appreciated

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    The simplest truths are written on the wall,
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  3. #13
    It is the same question as "What is art?"

    I do believe it is a case of talent and skill. Someone may write something and call it a "poem," but if no one recognizes it as a poem they've "failed." My general concern with writing poetry is my aim and what I achieve.

    There is also the history of writing - or rather of narratives - to consider too. Cultures have changed and we've created familiar concepts and experience with which to help more and more people attach meaning to things. I can understand why someone may contend against the idea of Olzmann's being a poem because it lacks the ancient formula for being a poem (in the strictest sense that Aristotle laid out in his "Poetics"), and it could be called more a use of political rhetoric of some sort (that is not my opinion, just one that could be driven at to down play the "poetic" nature of the piece.)

    We also have to consider different languages crossing over different poetic traditions. Haiku is quite popular, and it has a distinct meter; the thing is it is very much inclined toward a more philosophical/mystical outlook and not in any way meant to be glib or light in meaning.

    What appears to be the case is the intellectual weight attached to certain forms of poetry. Some is purely for fun and other forms are meant to be taken on with more consideration and intrigue - an obvious contrast would be between Nursery Rhymes and Haiku, each being aimed at a particular level of human maturity.

  4. #14
    @Badgerjelly;
    I disagree with your premise. Art is related to talent but talent, by itself isn’t art. IMHO but to me. art is anything created for other people to enjoy. Now is when talent enters the picture. Many people really don’t like the 50 Shades series or Twilight series of books. That does disqualify them as art.
    Why, because there are still millions out there who do like them. Yes, talent is important but to some degree that can be learned. As an example, look at my poetry, not very good when I started, better and still. improving now.
    "Illegitimi non carborundum " Vinegar' Joe Stilwell

    "Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase." Martin Luther King Jr.

    What you learn in life is important, those you help learn, are more important.

    "They can because they think they can."
    ​Virgil

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools will speak to say something." Plato

    "The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible."
    ​ Mark Twain

    "To those of you who received honors, awards and distinctions, I say well done. And to the C students, I say you, too, can be president of the United States." George W. Bush



  5. #15
    The premise was simply that there is such a thing as good art and bad art. All the practice in the world will not make a work of art a work of genius, only talent will.

    When it comes to saying what is or is not poetry it is a case of having a passion and understanding of the subject, and even then preference will sway opinion ... the "art", no matter the form, will shine through.

    I never said "art is talent," although I can see why you'd read that.

    There are different abilities out there and the masses are not always educated enough to recognize what is good art over bad art. Many probably couldn't care less. There is such a thing as art appreciation - my appreciation of "poetry" is limited because I've not really studied the subject matter much even though I have the advantage of attempting poetry and playing around a bit; that has given me appreciation of the difficulties of the craft and where my strengths and weaknesses lie.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by badgerjelly View Post
    There are different abilities out there and the masses are not always educated enough to recognize what is good art over bad art. Many probably couldn't care less.
    Here's a thing: the minute you are prepared to sacrifice the sensibilities of 'the masses' as being unable to recognise or understand 'art', you might as well give up. It's an often trotted out claim usually made by those who have studied the arts because they fear the emotional hole that lives inside of them. I've often found that those who have learned the subtleties of humility make much finer writers, painters, musicians, sculptors, actors and general human beings.

    Find a creative person who tells you the masses don't understand them, and if you dig deep enough you'll find someone who has mistaken knowledge for passion and emotion.

  7. #17
    Maybe cliche but, art is in the eye of the beholder,
    what is beautiful, moving, emotional, disturbing or
    likable is as individual as the stars. One manís art is
    another manís jiberish.
    There are many people who can draw and illustrate,
    are they artists? Or play a ten minute solo perfectly
    rehearsed.... artist?

    Does one have to be an artist to know art?

    And to what degree or defining line is there between
    a person being Ďartisticí, and an artist?

  8. #18
    The misunderstanding I keep seeing pop up is that for an artist to be good they must, inherently, be talented. This very idea discredits the hours and hours of practice, research, and thought that all artists (writers, poets, musicians, and visual artists) have put towards learning their craft. As this discussion is off-topic I advise that we either start a new thread to discuss it or return to the original topic.

    Lee, I would qualify your poem as a poem for a few reasons:

    1. It attempts a form.
    2. It uses imagery effectively to make a point.
    3. It uses rhyme and other poetic devices to enhance the meaning.

    I think it fails in its objective for a couple of reasons:

    1. The form breaks down.
    2. The language is stilted and not natural.

    Now, I think it's ok that the form breaks down because the language it was forcing the poem into was unnatural to the modern reader. It was lovely but wasn't your voice. In revision I would advise dropping the form entirely, focusing on one or two images that really reinforce what you have to say, and pull more from personal experience. Readers care about personal experience because it's easier for us to identify with one person's life than it is an abstract multitude's.

    Also, I wouldn't worry overmuch about someone claiming this isn't poetry. It's likely that whoever it was was ill-informed.

  9. #19
    I am fond of all of William Blake and he is no doubt an outstanding poet and his poetry transcend all sets of rules and Blakeís Auguries of Innocence and Matthew Olzmannís Letter to Someone Living Fifty Years from Now are indeed great poetry to me

  10. #20
    Waiting for the snow to stop before I go out to relocate it, and stopped in. Seems a bit of discussion has ensued.

    To me, "art" is what is recognized as such by the individual. Personally, I see artistry at work in the natural world, and I cringe at its defacing. It's like in a big city once seeing the hordes of mindless public trodding on a beautiful chalk drawing on the sidewalk, or like drivers intentionally running down wildlife because it dared to venture into "their" space. Of course, it's not Nature that needs protecting, but ourselves from our mindless diminishing of the biosphere that sustains our existence.

    Like the butterfly collectors focus in the natural sciences, some in "art" are intent on defining differences and enforcing dogma. Taken to extremes in such as poetry this can lead to overemphasis on aspects such as obscurity, which to me defeats the point of meaningful communication. As with identifying species to monitor evolution though, poetic aspects can be helpful in finding ways to address a larger audience in appealing to their aesthetics. To those that believe the dogma of poetry is more important than meaningful communication, I repeat my reference to an exceptional recent oral poem:
    https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPoli...3679265996889/

    Personally, it comes down to trying to get through to those that think increasing their stature is best accomplished through cleverness, if they use their reasoning potential at all, rather than conveying impactful aspects of life. As with most things in life though, the span between the extremes is a vast gray DMZ.

    On another note, I think the word "talent" is much misused. It's true that some things come easier than others to each of us, but to achieve a level of competence takes unwavering focus, and a heck of a lot of practice.

    I've likely said more than enough, so I think I'll take a nap before hauling these old bones out to battle the elements.

    Site:
    Hidden Content

    The simplest truths are written on the wall,
    where we see imaginary greatness in our fall.

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