Don't Dish it Out, If You Can't Take It - Page 6


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Thread: Don't Dish it Out, If You Can't Take It

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Chinspinner View Post
    An interesting topic. There was a slightly grey area in your argument that I want to resolve; am I allowed to beat people around the head with their own manuscripts?
    Unless you want to get to know me really, really well, which I assure you, you don't, there will be no beating of anyone with anything. Ever. Lol.


  2. #52
    You can never hate something so thoroughly as that which destroys what you love, and who is more guilty of this crime than the stranger who was once a lover?

  3. #53
    Me hat's off to thee, Sir Andrew. Thank you, that video is priceless.


  4. #54
    Anyone notice Articulate Lady's last post?
    https://www.writingforums.com/thread...=1#post2106903
    She is still here, last activity yesterday, but she has gone from someone who was an active and useful member to lurker, still think it is not worth pointing out the good stuff as well when you crit?

    I keep checking, just in case she starts posting again, I rather liked her.
    37 videos so far up from 36, added 'moonlight holder' today, 19 Feb.
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  5. #55
    Maybe something to add to a suggestion thread: A protected area for members not ready to swim in the ocean of full on critique. Reply posts requiring two positive attributes per one negative attributed noted. Sandwich critique method only...Admittence to said area approved by mentors and mods only. Cage diving so to speak, sharks and orcas at a safe distance.

    Allow a place for safe, warm water wading...Pretty, pristine, and fragile, much like a reef. But it is the deep, fierce cold water currents that is the foundation of the oceans' abundance and diversity. From algae blooms to the blue whale. A tough enivornment, much like the reality of writing.

    Critique is a tool, always has been and will be. Opinion, not holy writ. A hammer can slip from one's hands and land painfully on a toe...But what the writer does with the hammer is entirely up to them. Swear, hop about a bit, and return to the job. Take some time to ice the toe. Or walk away swearing to never take up a tool again because tools are now equated with toil and pain.
    Last edited by Darkkin; October 2nd, 2017 at 07:10 PM.


  6. #56
    A small percentage of successful writing is the original idea. The real work lies in honing it, trimming off the rough edges, polishing it and then reassessing. It's not over at that point, and often needs further work. Trim too much, polish too far and you need to start again.

    it's a process we all have to go through, and if someone doesn't want to follow that process they won't get far. I don't think hiding that helps anyone, nor does giving them a false sense of achievement. Sometimes the best advice is 'bin it and move on'; if that has to be accompanied by two doses of false praise you will actually be cheating the writer of an honest critique.

  7. #57
    Apologies for a second post on this, but thinking about it there is another side to this issue.

    I haven't seen many (or any recent) cases where someone posts a 'throwaway' negative or strong critique. There are some very good people in WF, and those that spend time and effort are rarely wrong in their observations. They must think something is worthwhile to spend that time and effort. I don't see 'this sucks' or 'it's crap'. If I really think that and have nothing to add, I just pass it by, and I'm sure others do.

    Where there are many 'throwaway' critiques are the 'this is great' or 'love this' comments, which do abound. Often these will follow posted poems that have clear and obvious flaws (I'm not talking personal taste here, but genuine flaws that could easily be corrected). The result is that you see new poets posting numerous poems all with the same issues, and a gaggle of comments telling them how lovely their work is.

    What then happens is someone identifies the flaws, and they get snapped at. The poster is hurt by the comments because everyone else - their peers - told them it was great. The outcome is that the person offering an in-depth critique decides to not bother with that poster again, and the original writer goes on to post work with the same issues and never develops.

    Interestingly I was looking back at some old posts (trying to remember who was around when I first joined) and saw a few pieces with the same issues that writer has today. Interestingly, they have developed an aggressive attitude to crits and so only gets the 'love this' comments. Has that writer been helped? I would argue not.

    Whilst not talking directly about the member that Olly raised, there are some brilliant writers (on here and elsewhere) who rarely post or publish their work. They have their reasons for that. There are also numerous talented writers who have walked away from writing. Again, they have their reasons. If their reasons include not liking crits or honest appraisal of their work, then they probably aren't cut out for writing for public consumption.

    In the case Olly referred to, I think she was overwhelmed by receiving critiques and instead of thinking about it and working through the comments and the reasons they were made, and seeing which (if any) worked for her, she tried to change everything at once and the poem was lost and no longer hers. We've all done it and had to learn from it.

    If I went to doctor and he said, 'Your finger is infected, it needs cutting off' I think it would be more helpful that, 'you're very handsome, you might have one too many fingers, and I love the way you bake a pig's head pie'.

    This place has Mods and Mentors and members aplenty to step in if someone is getting a rough ride, but I don't see that. I do see new writers being given hollow praise they don't need (or often deserve) which doesn't help them to develop. We all need a cuddle every now and again, but is a critique group the right place for it?

    It could be argued that removing the 'love this' type comments that include no reasoning or identification of weaknesses would benefit the new writers more than some softly softly platitudes.

  8. #58
    >>Pete_C - You might find that many of the throwaway Like/Love/Great comments came from (then) New Members looking to race through their ten post requirements so that they could then post their own creative genius for similar feedback.

    We have, at times, tried to curb this type of posting, but for every one we caught, three more turned up.
    "I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Cran View Post
    >>Pete_C - You might find that many of the throwaway Like/Love/Great comments came from (then) New Members looking to race through their ten post requirements so that they could then post their own creative genius for similar feedback.
    Sadly, I've seen several meaningless one-liner comments to serious discussions.
    Last edited by PiP; October 5th, 2017 at 01:52 PM.
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  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete_C View Post
    Apologies for a second post on this, but thinking about it there is another side to this issue.

    I haven't seen many (or any recent) cases where someone posts a 'throwaway' negative or strong critique. There are some very good people in WF, and those that spend time and effort are rarely wrong in their observations. They must think something is worthwhile to spend that time and effort. I don't see 'this sucks' or 'it's crap'. If I really think that and have nothing to add, I just pass it by, and I'm sure others do.

    Where there are many 'throwaway' critiques are the 'this is great' or 'love this' comments, which do abound. Often these will follow posted poems that have clear and obvious flaws (I'm not talking personal taste here, but genuine flaws that could easily be corrected). The result is that you see new poets posting numerous poems all with the same issues, and a gaggle of comments telling them how lovely their work is.

    What then happens is someone identifies the flaws, and they get snapped at. The poster is hurt by the comments because everyone else - their peers - told them it was great. The outcome is that the person offering an in-depth critique decides to not bother with that poster again, and the original writer goes on to post work with the same issues and never develops.

    Interestingly I was looking back at some old posts (trying to remember who was around when I first joined) and saw a few pieces with the same issues that writer has today. Interestingly, they have developed an aggressive attitude to crits and so only gets the 'love this' comments. Has that writer been helped? I would argue not.

    Whilst not talking directly about the member that Olly raised, there are some brilliant writers (on here and elsewhere) who rarely post or publish their work. They have their reasons for that. There are also numerous talented writers who have walked away from writing. Again, they have their reasons. If their reasons include not liking crits or honest appraisal of their work, then they probably aren't cut out for writing for public consumption.

    In the case Olly referred to, I think she was overwhelmed by receiving critiques and instead of thinking about it and working through the comments and the reasons they were made, and seeing which (if any) worked for her, she tried to change everything at once and the poem was lost and no longer hers. We've all done it and had to learn from it.

    If I went to doctor and he said, 'Your finger is infected, it needs cutting off' I think it would be more helpful that, 'you're very handsome, you might have one too many fingers, and I love the way you bake a pig's head pie'.

    This place has Mods and Mentors and members aplenty to step in if someone is getting a rough ride, but I don't see that. I do see new writers being given hollow praise they don't need (or often deserve) which doesn't help them to develop. We all need a cuddle every now and again, but is a critique group the right place for it?

    It could be argued that removing the 'love this' type comments that include no reasoning or identification of weaknesses would benefit the new writers more than some softly softly platitudes.
    I absolutely agree with this. I find that very often it's certain established poets and writers that receive this kind of critique with exactly that kind of attitude developing from such treatment. It's a large reason why I chose not to be a mentor and a larger part of the reason why I don't critique, post, or comment much.

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