Don't Dish it Out, If You Can't Take It - Page 3


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Thread: Don't Dish it Out, If You Can't Take It

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Firemajic View Post
    I cant tell you how many back slapping, atta boy, good job! blah blah comments I have made on thousands of mediocre, bland uninspired poems...
    Every time you "like" a poem of mine from now on I'm going to feel a knife slowly twisting in my back
    You can never hate something so thoroughly as that which destroys what you love, and who is more guilty of this crime than the stranger who was once a lover?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by sas View Post
    I'm not fond of gratuitous compliments that are obviously placed to soften what is going to be said, and recognized from a mile away. True work shoppers shouldn't need them. As I've said often, I don't need them (so, skip with me). Guess I look at workshop as I did work. Get to it. Get it done. Try to get it right. One's efforts for others ARE the kindness.
    That's why I prefer to post my poetry in the Workshop... just tell me why my piggin' poem sucks... I am here to learn. I don't like candy, have the hide of a hog and the patience of a gnat.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewclunn View Post
    Every time you "like" a poem of mine from now on I'm going to feel a knife slowly twisting in my back
    Okk, well you missed the entire point of this thread, I was speaking of how I used to critique... then I got wise.. I learned from the critiques that inspired me, the ones that were honest, insightful, intelligent and respectful... and then I changes my POV, I am not doing anyone any favors if I pat them on the back and applaud a vapid, empty, ambiguous splatter of words on a screen... I want honesty, and I now give honesty... the point of my comment was that no one got upset with me when I told them what they wanted to hear, but blood was spilled if I gave my honest opinion, and lets not forget... that IS what a critique is... an opinion. Period, it is not a personal attack, until you make it one...

    If you feel a knife in your back... it won't be mine, I will come for you face to face and plunge my knife in your chest...
    She lost herself in the trees,
    among the ever-changing leaves.
    She wept beneath the wild sky
    as stars told stories of ancient times.
    The flowers grew toward her light,
    the river called her name at night.
    She could not live an ordinary life,
    with the mysteries of the universe
    hidden in her eyes....
    Author: Christy Ann Martine

    Death leaves a heartache no one can heal,
    love leaves a memory no one can steal....
    Author unknown.

  4. #24
    I could kiss you for this bit of brilliance, Olly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Olly Buckle View Post
    I see the point, and I probably would be less concientious when I am dealing with one of the 'Old Timers' I know, but with a new-comer or someone I don't know well I think it is worth the effort of phrasing things so they will be taken on board and considered. If it helps get the point over I don't see it as gratuitous, any more than taking the effort to show the reader in an interestesting way, rather than just telling him, getting on with it, and losing him.
    Us Old Timers have skin that defies bazooka shells, so yes, if you know the OP is seasoned, skip the sugary shit and shoot from the hip. Please keep in mind that even we veterans sometimes get touchy, but we've been around the block enough to know how to conduct ourselves. What I'm begging everyone to do is to consider whose thread you're posting in, if it's a vet, straight for the jugular, but if the poster is new or unknown to you, speak honestly but try to temper your manner of delivery so that what you're saying can be absorbed and considered. Please realize that new folks don't know us as people, or how things run on the board. Those sticking a toe in the water for the first time only to find it bitten off by an alligator they do not know who's growling "this is wrong and that is wrong or what were you thinking" is enough to make anyone throw in the pen. It is possible to deliver pure honesty, tempered with any little bit of good you can find, even if it's proper grammar or a decent concept, so that the poster does not feel like a failure.

    We all start at the beginning, and the beginners are ours to teach, and I can't tell you how many know nothings turned into big somethings since I've been here, but it is our duty to the craft itself to offer knowledge in a manner that is embraceable. Honesty doesn't have to feel like chastisement, it is a tool we should wield with respect and dignity. Skill level should be considered when it comes to critique, I'm not talking coddling, just consideration.

    Lastly, if you know for a fact that someone merely wants pats on the back and prefers to remain mired in substandard muck of their own making, it doesn't take us too long to figure out who they are, don't waste your time and refrain from commenting at all. We should concentrate our efforts on those who appreciate it and we will be rewarded with watching them blossom before our eyes.


  5. #25
    Member Articulate Lady's Avatar
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    It was really difficult for me when I first came here. My first poem was a mess, and even though I thought it was a great poem written from the heart, it was really unorganized and hard to follow. I see that now after accepting the critique that was given to me.

    I have to admit, Darkkin was the first person to critique my poem and I was devastated. I had no idea how bad it was, and I took it to heart. But even though i was hurt, I remained calm and was courteous to her and thanked her for her critique. Not once did I lash out at her for it.

    I will say this, as a beginner, some people should take that into consideration, although if i was really afraid of critique, I wouldn't post in the main Poetry section and just stick to the workshop like PiP.

    It is all about etiquette, and people on the internet have a habit of being unkind and unruly. It's just the nature of the beast, I guess.
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  6. #26
    Critique is an opinion. People who take it as an assault upon themselves really do not have an idea of what critique truly is. An impartial observation on the writing not the writer. The reader doesn't know the writer from Adam, so how is proper critique a personal attack? It isn't logical. The work is the direct object, not the author. Critique, stemming from the roots of critical technique, not criticism of the individual. Basic critical thinking skills, the crucial why behind an observation. Writing is blood, sweat, and savage edits.

    And while I might have fewer years in my dish than many here, my shields are thick and armor hard won. (A lifetime of people telling me I cannot, am not able, and do not know how...Few bothered to ever provide a why and believe me, I made sure to ask. It is also a big part of the reason I think 'Because I said so' reasoning is a load of bullshit.) If a writer likes something, that is their right as the author, they don't have to change a thing, as critique is simply an opinion. If they don't have a why beyond the 'Well it sounds good', then chances are a) not much thought has gone into a piece or b) the writer is too emotionally attached to a piece and cannot address issues objectively.

    I keep it on the work and only the work and I do not pull punches, but I also make sure I include the reason why something doesn't work. Math and science teachers chronically harp on the phrase: Show your work. The same needs to apply to critique. Show examples. The reasonings behind why A does not support B or why word X doesn't support context I. The equation needs to balance. Basic logic, it doesn't leave room for ego, but observant readers know enough to pay attention to their emotional reactions ellicted. The empathtic reactions, how they relate to a piece's tone. How well they connect with a wrtier's voice...

    I'm horrorible excuse of a human because I stick to basic logic, but I also learn by critiquing. What people do with the observations its totally up to the individual...But as sterile as logic can seem, it forces writers to take a hard look at the writing itself, not the writer's process...As a reader, the writer's process needs to remain on the writer's side of the fourth wall, it has no bearing on the context of the content. If there is an issue, logic does not care it points out the issue. Technical aspects carry just as much weight as the content.

    As a reader, a writer, I also know to practice what I preach. Things like reading aloud, running basic spell check, and making sure my context supports the whole. And being able to reply cogently to a reader's why. If I can't I know the issue needs to be addressed. Just like the shell of Turtle, the fourth wall is a shield. I'm merely a name on a screen, writing will stand or fall on its own merit, no matter the writer's emotional attachment to it. Logic maintains the intergrity of my fourth wall shell and diverts borrowed drama.

    This is the internet, so skill levels of writers varied, but there is little point in pandering or pulling punches. True critique does neither. It is concise and to the point. Good writing has structural intergrity and when hit with a rubber mallet it will jiggle like Jello, but maintain its form. (Logic is my rubber mallet and weapon of choice. Useful and nonlethal. ) If there are issues that need to be addressed, logic reveals fissures within the context. Many take the fissures in stride, but some assume that the cracks are reflections of the individual, not the writing. Sorry, but no. It is the writing not the writer. One small conjugation, but a whole world of meaning.

    Should I be thanking people for not treating critique like a personal attack? A little logic goes a long way, but means jack shit when the drama starts.
    Last edited by Darkkin; September 13th, 2017 at 03:24 AM.


  7. #27
    Darkkin, you are one of the most knowledgeable poets, and one of the best critters, here. You are in no way "a horrible excuse of a human being" for providing others with the benefit of your expertise. As I've seen no one label you as such publicly, if they have, even privately, please inform me immediately. Just as we expect those being critiqued not to take it personally, their initial upset at finding out their work needs adjustment should not be taken personally, either. Human egos are fragile, and for a beginner poet to find out they're not quite as good as they presumed is a serious blow. Being told they are not perfect will result in a reaction, and that reaction should not be taken personally, either. Please keep doing what you do so well, and please understand that the reactions that result from budding poets finding out they've much to learn isn't directed at you personally. It's the message they're having difficulty with, not the messenger, even though I know sometimes it may feel that way. You are a priceless asset to these boards. Keep doing you, you are irreplaceable.


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Articulate Lady View Post
    It was really difficult for me when I first came here. My first poem was a mess, and even though I thought it was a great poem written from the heart, it was really unorganized and hard to follow. I see that now after accepting the critique that was given to me.

    I have to admit, Darkkin was the first person to critique my poem and I was devastated. I had no idea how bad it was, and I took it to heart. But even though i was hurt, I remained calm and was courteous to her and thanked her for her critique. Not once did I lash out at her for it.

    I will say this, as a beginner, some people should take that into consideration, although if i was really afraid of critique, I wouldn't post in the main Poetry section and just stick to the workshop like PiP.

    It is all about etiquette, and people on the internet have a habit of being unkind and unruly. It's just the nature of the beast, I guess.
    Sounds like sink or swim, dear, and, uh... you swam .

  9. #29
    It strikes me that it is quite logical that an emotion based human being should associate with their poetic creations and have personal feelings that they are being 'attacked' when they see 'negative' crit. If the crit is based on the writing does not matter, if they feel the writing is an extension of themselves it is logical for them to feel this way. It is not rational, but people (Some might say especially poets) are not rational, which makes it logical to expect an irrational reaction to these things, helping themtoa rational reaction can be as important as making a logical point, after all there is no logical point in making it if the irrational reaction prevents them appreciating it.

    Well done Articulate Lady, you appear to be living up to your name and look like being a valuable addition to the forum, and whilst that comment may not be stricktly necessary, neither is it simply guff
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester's Daughter View Post




    *** It is possible to deliver pure honesty, tempered with any little bit of good you can find, even if it's proper grammar or a decent concept, so that the poster does not feel like a failure.*****

    We all start at the beginning,****** and the beginners are ours to teach******, and I can't tell you how many know nothings turned into big somethings since I've been here, but it is our duty to the craft itself to offer knowledge in a manner that is embraceable. Honesty doesn't have to feel like chastisement, it is a tool we should wield with respect and dignity. Skill level should be considered when it comes to critique, I'm not talking coddling, just consideration.

    ***We should concentrate our efforts on those who appreciate it and we will be rewarded with watching them blossom before our eyes.


    This! This should be our CODE OF CONDUCT!!!! Mentors and members alike.... Anyone who is truly passionate about their craft wants to inspire that love in someone else, especially when you can see the willingness to LISTEN and LEARN....Anyone who loves writing and has had the benefit of a wonderful mentor owes a payback. PASS IT ON.... Be kind, supportive, respectful, honest and ALWAYS ENCOURAGING... But, if you cannot be any of these things, then stay out of the way of those who are trying to help, encourage and inspire... stop adding your negative comments , If you are not part of the solution, at least don't be part of the problem...please... let us work together, and make the fabulous poetry thread truly fabulous...
    She lost herself in the trees,
    among the ever-changing leaves.
    She wept beneath the wild sky
    as stars told stories of ancient times.
    The flowers grew toward her light,
    the river called her name at night.
    She could not live an ordinary life,
    with the mysteries of the universe
    hidden in her eyes....
    Author: Christy Ann Martine

    Death leaves a heartache no one can heal,
    love leaves a memory no one can steal....
    Author unknown.

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