The Cape (His Sketch) - Page 2


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Thread: The Cape (His Sketch)

  1. #11
    A critique is just an opinion... nothing more, nothing less, unless it addresses SPaG issues... it is most likely[ and should never be]not about the poet, so the poet should not take the critique as a personal attack. Those critiques that are rude and a personal attack should be put where they belong... in the trash. Ignored. It is up to the poet to decide if there is anything of value in the critique. Sometimes, it IS helpful to have the readers feedback and POV. If not, the poet is under NO obligation to use the feedback. However, critique... GOOD critique is essential to the growth of the poet. Without critique, the poet exists in limbo, doomed to repeat the same mistakes, over and over again. When a poet posts work on this forum, in this thread... there is a chance that they will receive a critique that they will not like, it is the chance one takes when posting a poem here. If feedback is not wanted, the poet may include that in a footnote with the poem.
    She lost herself in the trees,
    among the ever-changing leaves.
    She wept beneath the wild sky
    as stars told stories of ancient times.
    The flowers grew toward her light,
    the river called her name at night.
    She could not live an ordinary life,
    with the mysteries of the universe
    hidden in her eyes....
    Author: Christy Ann Martine

    Death leaves a heartache no one can heal,
    love leaves a memory no one can steal....
    Author unknown.

  2. #12
    i must say, I'm appalled.

    'NO! NO! Do not cut it up or kill it just because someONE says it should be done' - is downright dishonest.

    I once suggested to Nellie that the verses in her her poem might be re-ordered -
    ever since, she has treated me like I am solely responsible for international terrorism,
    third world debt and the hole in the ozone layer - it's not the end of the world,
    but she seems determined to continue til rapture - so, be warned!

    Silver - you have similarly wasted time and energy undermining my critique instead of
    addressing the poem - 'It has so many merits' - is easy to say.
    why not give examples of where it does and doesn't work?
    that would be far more useful to Wes, surely?

    Sas - judging from the comments, there seems to be only one opinion here, - mine...
    at least I gave it honestly with reasons and detail...

    my apologies to you Space - for having to waste space.
    Ned

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ned View Post
    Space, of course, it is up to you how to proceed - and I am not alone in failing to grasp your meanings.
    I just took the trouble to underline the point.

    surely, the first task of a writer is to communicate ideas - hopefully in an entertaining way.
    although, some writers are quite happy to remain 'mysterious' - which, for me, equates with lazy and uninteresting.

    but I feel you have something to say, and it must be frustrating to be misunderstood.
    so, touch common ground in your expressions - connect with the experiences and notions of the reader.

    for example -
    The vacationers wade his mandrel shore and rotate with sea,
    like a karaoke show,

    leaves me cold, because I don't see the connection - the commonality of the ideas.
    bring it back a bit, with something more basic and a bit of thought, and we might have-

    wading vacationers took turns at getting wet feet, like in a karaoke show.
    not great, but nearer the mark, perhaps.

    whether you stick, twist or fold - the important thing is that you grow as a writer
    and learn from the experience that you cannot presume that the reader has the same
    instant connections as you do - ground the expressions without spelling them out -
    it's a thin line!

    cheers.....Ned

    Hi ned. I came across short in my reply to your critique. I apologize for that. I suppose I have been a bit perturbed over this poem -- even when I started it (!). I take your advice quite seriously because you have great feedback and suggestions, so thank you for that. I enjoy symbolism in poetry, and I know I often fall short of "expressing ideas" for some readers to understand fully (especially without revisiting the work and researching). I suppose I don't expect a reader to be lazy either. But when the message is so muddled, I know the reader must get frustrated at times. My intent is to challenge but not frustrate. W

  4. #14
    yes Wes - never forget that the reader makes an investment when reading a poem -
    most expect a reward - a revelation of an unsaid truth, and/or a resolution of an idea.
    and to be entertained, lyrically along the way.

    as said, you have the writing skills - and I would not be so damning upon lesser scribes.

    If you have something to say, then, I want to hear it.
    Ned

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ned View Post
    i must say, I'm appalled.

    'NO! NO! Do not cut it up or kill it just because someONE says it should be done' - is downright dishonest.

    I once suggested to Nellie that the verses in her her poem might be re-ordered -
    ever since, she has treated me like I am solely responsible for international terrorism,
    third world debt and the hole in the ozone layer - it's not the end of the world,
    but she seems determined to continue til rapture - so, be warned!

    Silver - you have similarly wasted time and energy undermining my critique instead of
    addressing the poem - 'It has so many merits' - is easy to say.
    why not give examples of where it does and doesn't work?
    that would be far more useful to Wes, surely?

    Sas - judging from the comments, there seems to be only one opinion here, - mine...
    at least I gave it honestly with reasons and detail...

    my apologies to you Space - for having to waste space.
    Ned

    You're not wasting space. No one is. I made a knee jerk comment that should not have been posted when I said, So, should I kill the piece? Please don't take that personally. Sometimes a poem gets so muddled down that perhaps it DOES need to be trashed. (The trash can is the poet's best friend.) So, I was partly serious but it came off wrong.

    I respect everyone's opinion. I often feel that at times, if the message isn't evident from the get-go, a poem is easier to overlook for readers, subsequently making whatever is written overlooked completely. This is natural. But I'm not on here to be an arse to anyone or claim that someone is solely responsible for "international terrorism" lol because they heavily critique my posts. I DO want the good, bad, and the ugly. SO thank you for being honest and you did not waste space, ned. I'm genuinely sorry if I made you or anyone feel that way.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverMoon View Post
    Wesley, from what I've read you employ the literary genre of "Abstract" Poetry". Most all of my work is abstract/interpretive.

    And I have this saying "When I Cook up a Poem I Never Serve it with the Recipe"

    What follows is an excerpt from link below:

    "To write an abstract poem, it is important to understand that it is not the meaning of the words that are important but the feeling, the sound and the impact of the words on the reader or listener. You do not have to rhyme any of the words and, most importantly, it does not have to make sense. You are creating something intangible yet beautiful. One technique is that of William Burrough's "

    http://penandthepad.com/do-write-abstract-poem-6854127.html
    This link provides much great advice as how to piece together the "Abstract Poem".



    I see that you have replied to ned's comments. His key ones will follow in quote box because it seems that some have dampened "your artistic spirit", you stating that you should cut up, kill your piece. (I've felt that way in the past and have regrets - I now I keep a folder "Poems to be Edited")

    I'm going to quote both you and ned, the one who critiques and the artist who writes, with what I hope will be considered positive input, But first a quote that I think is apt to what follows.

    "The critic has to educate the public. The artist has to educate the critic" Oscar Wilde




    Wesley, you replied to ned's post like a responsible, level headed member.



    Kudos! Now, please show yourself the same respect and KEEP THIS POEM OUT OF THE TRASH!!! It has so many merits. Good poets work and re-work. It's a wonder I'm still alive because I edit my work to death.

    May PEACE reign! Laurie

    Thank you for the peace reign. My response to ned did come across rude. But I wasn't trying to be. Thank you for checking me on this and appreciate your information about abstract writing.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Firemajic View Post
    A critique is just an opinion... nothing more, nothing less, unless it addresses SPaG issues... it is most likely[ and should never be]not about the poet, so the poet should not take the critique as a personal attack. Those critiques that are rude and a personal attack should be put where they belong... in the trash. Ignored. It is up to the poet to decide if there is anything of value in the critique. Sometimes, it IS helpful to have the readers feedback and POV. If not, the poet is under NO obligation to use the feedback. However, critique... GOOD critique is essential to the growth of the poet. Without critique, the poet exists in limbo, doomed to repeat the same mistakes, over and over again. When a poet posts work on this forum, in this thread... there is a chance that they will receive a critique that they will not like, it is the chance one takes when posting a poem here. If feedback is not wanted, the poet may include that in a footnote with the poem.

    My comment did seem to stifle good critique and I apologize if any of my comments have come off that way. I don't take critiques personally, and I promote everyone's opinion. I do find it a learning experience, making us all a bit better after each read/critique, and I hope my words do not come across argumentative when one provides their time and feedback.

    I appreciate your words, Firemajic. You've helped me on a couple pieces and I find your insight invaluable, making the poems better. Thank you, again, for taking time to read and critique.

    Very Respectfully,

    Wesley C.

  8. #18
    Wes, believe me, your response is not the problem...

    so, to bring it down - back to the poem
    your style is quite obscure, having read your other work -
    so, the question is, do you wish to be an 'abstract' poet
    or do you wish to engage the reader with your ideas? - there's no right or wrong
    just your ambition.

    Ned

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ned View Post
    yes Wes - never forget that the reader makes an investment when reading a poem -
    most expect a reward - a revelation of an unsaid truth, and/or a resolution of an idea.
    and to be entertained, lyrically along the way.

    as said, you have the writing skills - and I would not be so damning upon lesser scribes.

    If you have something to say, then, I want to hear it.
    Ned
    Quote Originally Posted by ned View Post
    Wes, believe me, your response is not the problem...

    so, to bring it down - back to the poem
    your style is quite obscure, having read your other work -
    so, the question is, do you wish to be an 'abstract' poet
    or do you wish to engage the reader with your ideas? - there's no right or wrong
    just your ambition.

    Ned

    Thank you, Ned, for your understanding and continued probing. This is helpful, makes me really think. My intentions aren't necessarily to be completely abstract all the time with every poem. This poem just happened to be even further out there. It's far out there even for me. I enjoy reading poems and stories that can possibly give the reader their own ideas about what is written. I don't often write for personal expression, albeit everything that is shared has a percentage of personal expression.

    I do wish to engage the reader as well as engage with abstract ideas. Zeno of Citium was not an abstract philosopher, but he may be placed in this poem in hopes to make the piece less abstract. I do wish to be less cryptic, less unclear. Obscure can be a good thing, but not always everyone's cup of tea, right? I'm fine with that.

    The poem needs to be reworked or trashed. That's my honest opinion. What I'm trying to say isn't coming across as planned. That's fine. It's an exercise on how one perceives another without any information on who one actually is. So, the idea that the poem is difficult (or challenging), seemingly (upon first read) void of message, is indicative of the way the character is perceived or thought of by the person speaking in the poem.

  10. #20
    WF Veteran SilverMoon's Avatar
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    Hello, ned, Wesley and to anyone who is reading. I've just deleted an epic post diagnosing, dissecting matters at hand in mine and the following posts. Simple it will be.

    First I want to say that if anything good came from my post it seems that you both have become friends who are enjoying the wonderful engagement of discussing poetry. This is awesome.

    Ned, I had not meant to demonize you or your critique in anyway. It seems I have inadvertently caused you upset so please accept my apology. This was not my intent.

    Wesley, I was not pointing to you when I signed off "May Peace Reign" You are a peaceful one.

    It was just this:

    PEACE FOR ALL! Let any unintended affronts be gone by the wayside. Poetry is a special place for us all - even a home for some like myself.

    My best and respect, always. Laurie


    Last edited by SilverMoon; July 6th, 2017 at 05:19 AM.
    “The man who cannot visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot.”
    Andre Breton

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