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  1. Smith's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcharles
    The fact that these kids keep dying should provide sufficient impetus to give the 2nd amendment a serious examination at the very least. And while I accept that they may be victims of indoctrination - you raise an excellent point, and I don't dispute it so you may take this as backfixing that omission, and I ditched my liberal media sources long ago for precisely that reason - they are by no means the only ones and their position is by no means the only position to be subject to that, not by any stretch. So that's really no counterargument. Everyone's influenced by the media, and someone's going to make money off whatever's decided. But these kids are also the victims of being shot at. I ask again - when was the last time a gathering of NRA members/supporters can say the same about any immediate endangerment to their life? The question is which influence causes the most damage?

    It's the American identity to have the freedom to carry weapons - another example of social cool, if you like - so again, everyone's at it, not just liberals looking to get laid. And despite how it seems, I do understand the importance of identity, and I know that in the vast majority of cases there is no issue. I do however take exception to the false equivalance given to a restriction of freedom that may hypothetically have a tyrant disempowering America's citizens, versus frequent shootings that are actually happening on the ground today. It depends whether that notional freedom is worth those deaths. Is it?
    Being influenced by social media or getting some of your information from news outlets is different than just repeating talking points verbatim.

    *Some* of these kids are the victims of being shot at, and practically always by their fellow peers. Now, I don't remember what case it was specifically, but there'd been numerous complaints and warnings regarding one of the recent killers. The police knew about him and the things he'd said / done, and so did the FBI for months. No actions were taken. Not even an investigation if I recall correctly. THAT is something specific to raise awareness about. We have a bigger problem with existing legislature not being enforced, rather than not having enough legal caution tape. Honestly, the bureaucracy of trying to get a firearm is the equivalent of trying to parkour one's way through a laser-field in some sort of cheesy spy film.

    Fair point, there is an element of social cool to being a gun owner.

    And I'll be honest with you, I'm not a fan of protests anyway, regardless of what it's for or against. Don't get me wrong, I fully support the right to protest. But with some exceptions like the Civil Rights movement, they always seem to devolve into idiocy and emotional bleating. Makes the people with actual points and reasoned arguments look bad.

    Point and case: http://www.businessinsider.de/here-a...ing-question-6

    Hypothetical reasons such as tyranny, in my opinion, come second to personal self-defense (although technically not if you're only looking at the Constitution). I'd rather live in a country where criminals are afraid that their actions could result in severe personal harm to themselves.

    As for your last question, it's a matter of principle. To me, of course it is. And for the record I'll confidently say that if somebody I knew personally was the victim of a shooting, I'd have the same exact stance.
  2. midnightpoet's Avatar
    I'm not against responsible gun ownership, and I agree that media on both sides give a twisted version of the truth. I would like to ask the joint chiefs of staff a question, though. Does the U.S. military real fear an armed citizenry? In any case my concern is the non-responsible gun owners (however many or few they are). I've got to wonder why so many (especially school) shootings. Citizens have always had guns along with a distrust of government. Right after the revolution we had the whisky rebellion (1792 I believe). But guns aren't the cause of these shootings, and violence is occurring all over the world. Don't have an answer, though. Just questions.
  3. bdcharles's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Smith
    You mean the "same" students who said not everybody should be punished and have their backpacks taken away and searched every time they enter the school, because of the actions of a violent few?

    Many of them don't know what they say, and are the last people I would ever want to see in a voting booth. They can't clean their rooms, keep their relationships in working order, but they can fix society? Or for example, Steven Crowder has gone to numerous campuses and spoken with the students about gun control, and their ignorance is shocking. Listening to them talk is usually enough to reveal that their entire argument is an emotional one, and I would suspect that many a mind would be surprised to realize that they are protesting against the government for the actions of their fellow mass-murdering peers. The adults are always at fault. The sophistication of their thought can be summed up by the angsty song "Anthem Part 2" by blink-182. It brings me great pain to say that because I'm actually a fan of their music.

    These students, by and large, are victims of indoctrinating by their professors and the media. (Exceptions would be those who had immediate friends and family members killed in a school shooting.) It's socially cool and popular to be radically anti-gun regardless these days. Try being openly pro-gun and have fun being ostracized by the ever so pious and "tolerant" modern liberals.

    You have a point about the NRA, but there are plenty of people who would monetarily benefit from restricting the second amendment, let alone abolishing it. And as far as Fox News is concerned, CNN isn't any better. I hate them both with a passion. I understand you technically didn't say otherwise, but I find it peculiar you didn't mention the equally dishonest Left leaning media. With respect, this omission is contributing to the very problem you claim to be against.
    The fact that these kids keep dying should provide sufficient impetus to give the 2nd amendment a serious examination at the very least. And while I accept that they may be victims of indoctrination - you raise an excellent point, and I don't dispute it so you may take this as backfixing that omission, and I ditched my liberal media sources long ago for precisely that reason - they are by no means the only ones and their position is by no means the only position to be subject to that, not by any stretch. So that's really no counterargument. Everyone's influenced by the media, and someone's going to make money off whatever's decided. But these kids are also the victims of being shot at. I ask again - when was the last time a gathering of NRA members/supporters can say the same about any immediate endangerment to their life? The question is which influence causes the most damage?

    It's the American identity to have the freedom to carry weapons - another example of social cool, if you like - so again, everyone's at it, not just liberals looking to get laid. And despite how it seems, I do understand the importance of identity, and I know that in the vast majority of cases there is no issue. I do however take exception to the false equivalance given to a restriction of freedom that may hypothetically have a tyrant disempowering America's citizens, versus frequent shootings that are actually happening on the ground today. It depends whether that notional freedom is worth those deaths. Is it?
  4. Smith's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcharles
    Without reservation I hold entities like the NRA and Fox Media responsible for keeping us continually divided like this, and their influence is so pernicious that the idea of democracy seems impossibly dated. It is their fault and fuck em both to hell. So with this in mind we approach the idea of carrying firearms with great trepidation. I tell you what, it will be interesting to see where all these marches take us, these Parkland students. I can't see them buying into the old narratives.
    You mean the "same" students who said not everybody should be punished and have their backpacks taken away and searched every time they enter the school, because of the actions of a violent few?

    Many of them don't know what they say, and are the last people I would ever want to see in a voting booth. They can't clean their rooms, keep their relationships in working order, but they can fix society? Or for example, Steven Crowder has gone to numerous campuses and spoken with the students about gun control, and their ignorance is shocking. Listening to them talk is usually enough to reveal that their entire argument is an emotional one, and I would suspect that many a mind would be surprised to realize that they are protesting against the government who had no control over the actions of their fellow mass-murdering peers. The adults are always at fault. The sophistication of their thought can be summed up by the lyrics from the angsty song "Anthem Part 2" by blink-182. It brings me great pain to say that because I'm actually a fan of their music.

    These students, by and large, are victims of indoctrinating by their professors and the media. (Exceptions would be those who had immediate friends and family members killed in a school shooting.) It's socially cool and popular to be radically anti-gun regardless these days. Try being openly pro-gun and have fun being ostracized by the ever so pious and "tolerant" modern liberals.

    You make a perfectly good point about the NRA, charles, but there are plenty of people who would monetarily benefit from restricting the second amendment, let alone abolishing it. And as far as Fox News is concerned, CNN isn't any better. I hate them both with a passion. I understand you technically didn't say otherwise, but I find it peculiar you didn't mention the equally dishonest Left leaning media. Respectfully, this omission is contributing to the very problem you claim to be against.

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcharles
    Instead we ought to address the causes of crime like poverty and inequality and absent social services and a cut-to-the-bone police force (and no, insufficient prayer in schools isn't going to cut it these days, though family and community breakdown might) and fix those first before assuming everything's unresolvably shit and distributing the guns out like haribo.
    Not sure I agree with your quip about the police force, but overall you and I are in agreement, in the sense that we (I presume; correct me if I'm mistaken) would like to see the actual causes of crime addressed, and the responsibility laid at the feet of the individual and not moronically scapegoated onto an inanimate object.

    ABSOLUTELY. Family and community breakdown is a huge factor. Childhood abuse and trauma another. Adding more or less guns is taking a cold tablet for your symptoms at best.

    There was a long, long, long period of time where there were just as many guns per capita, far less regulations and enforcement, and far less shootings.
    Updated March 27th, 2018 at 02:28 PM by Smith
  5. Kevin's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure the Nazis are coming. And the commies. Whatever, doesn't matter, tens of thousands of young people are dying around the country, and marching, denouncing the adults, turning in those with old thinking, with antiquated devices, young people striving for a new utopia where only...
    And then there's the wild, the outskirts, the forbidden zones filled with outlaws and... Deplorables, Klu -kluxer sympathizers who run the camps where all the gays have been secretly rounded up and shipped to. I read it in the Internet, saw it on msnbc, 60 minutes, and in the contrails. I can read those, too.
  6. bdcharles's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Smith
    I understand that people who have the "guns are scary" opinion tend to reign from places that do not have a second amendment (at least, not the one that we have), but I still struggle to see their view point.

    Maybe I don't fear it because I believe that people are generally good (Rousseau). Maybe I don't fear it because I recognize that, logically, what should be feared is he who wields the weapon, not the weapon itself. Maybe I don't fear it because I recognize that law abiding gun owners are not the ones committing the crimes. Maybe I don't fear it because the risk of freedom to me is nothing in comparison to the risk of a tyrannical Big Mother nanny-state.

    Maybe I don't fear it because I don't buy into the fear mongering of the media.

    Maybe people DO fear it because they don't understand the extensive amount of gun control laws and regulations that already exist here in the US. Maybe people who DO fear guns would benefit from going through a safety course, realizing that Joe Blow does not get to walk around a mall with a fully automatic Glock in in his trench coat.

    Maybe people who DO fear guns simply do not appreciate that they are ultimately what stands between them and tyranny by force or invasion. And maybe they don't know the peace of mind it brings oneself and their family by having a gun in the household. You might NEVER, EVER need it, but I'd rather have one and never need it than guarantee the possible death or harm of myself and my family because I printed out the Constitution, balled it up, placed it in the toilet, urinated on it and flushed. There's a reason why if you live in Britain, for example, that you're more likely to be burgled when you're home, versus anywhere in the United States.

    At the end of the day, if you're afraid of guns then that's fine. But you don't get to take away my right to defend myself as a result of your fear. Most of the people out on the roads are idiots and it's a mystery how they passed driver's training, but I would never propose we should ban cars.
    I don't fear guns. Neither do I fear the folks on this forum, and those like them, having them. I fear the products of a troubled society or whatever cause that might get a hold of them, which - demonstrably - happens alot and at great societal cost. Would I trust the average, law abiding gun owner to stand between me (or my US based family) and full on tyranny? It's a big ask and I'm not sure how much use a personal firearm, or even a clutch of assault rifles, would be against a regiment of M1s and a nuclear warhead. Isn't stepping in in that way what the armed forces are for? And if some tyrant in the White House (As if! Hey, I write fiction. It's fiction! Right? ) wanted to mobilise the governmental forces, would personal weaponry stop them or would there be a coup or some other dissent from those same forces. Remember they are staffed voluntarily by the general public. There's no hive mind linking them to a central authority. There are even checks and balances in place should that somehow ever happen. And when was the last time that did happen. Compare and contrast to school shootings.

    As for your Britain vs US burglary stats, you are generally right (source btw? I checked http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...d-States/Crime), although things vary from region to region, demographic to demographic and so on, so let's hold a little short of too many easy generalisations. Instead we ought to address the causes of crime like poverty and inequality and absent social services and a cut-to-the-bone police force (and no, insufficient prayer in schools isn't going to cut it these days, though family and community breakdown might) and fix those first before assuming everything's unresolvably shit and distributing the guns out like haribo.
  7. bdcharles's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston

    For our friends "across the pond", I apologize if this stuff is frightening. Many of us grew-up around this, and it is not foreign at all.
    It's ok. I mean, the gun owners on this forum seem like sensible and decent folk and you are all a credit to your nation(s) and your persuasions. The issue I have is everybody else. With there being so much ... well, would I even say violence? so much hate in the world, I just can't countenance the sense of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harriet (<- look, my liberal guts must be showing ) access, or even proximity, to a firearm. I walk into town and people are fighting outside rundown drinking holes for no reason, or trying to run each other off the road with their souped up little motors. There is no way in hell I want them to even stumble anywhere near a firearm. Mention something like "Trump" or "Brexit" and families are at each others' throats. Maybe not those of the people on this forum - and for that, you are all very lucky, and we are likewise lucky to know you - but too many. I lost my mother to the right wing media a decade before the more regular form of cancer did her in. My dad is pretty much the same way but without the unbounded cell growth. There's no trust in the world. Everyone hates everyone else, everyone wants to pound everyone else into the ground, and everyone that can, generally those that have pots of cash, is feeding that idea for their own benefit, and at the expense of those that have little. The day all of that is fixed will be an interesting day, and I really hope it is coming. Without reservation I hold entities like the NRA and Fox Media responsible for keeping us continually divided like this, and their influence is so pernicious that the idea of democracy seems impossibly dated. It is their fault and fuck em both to hell. So with this in mind we approach the idea of carrying firearms with great trepidation. I tell you what, it will be interesting to see where all these marches take us, these Parkland students. I can't see them buying into the old narratives.

    I want to say "rant over" but a true rant is never really over No, I'll stop now
  8. Smith's Avatar
    I understand that people who have the "guns are scary" opinion tend to reign from places that do not have a second amendment (at least, not the one that we have), but I still struggle to see their view point.

    Maybe I don't fear it because I believe that people are generally good (Rousseau). Maybe I don't fear it because I recognize that, logically, what should be feared is he who wields the weapon, not the weapon itself. Maybe I don't fear it because I recognize that law abiding gun owners are not the ones committing the crimes. Maybe I don't fear it because the risk of freedom to me is nothing in comparison to the risk of a tyrannical Big Mother nanny-state.

    Maybe I don't fear it because I don't buy into the fear mongering of the media.

    Maybe people DO fear it because they don't understand the extensive amount of gun control laws and regulations that already exist here in the US. Maybe people who DO fear guns would benefit from going through a safety course, realizing that Joe Blow does not get to walk around a mall with a fully automatic Glock in in his trench coat.

    Maybe people who DO fear guns simply do not appreciate that they are ultimately what stands between them and tyranny by force or invasion. And maybe they don't know the peace of mind it brings oneself and their family by having a gun in the household. You might NEVER, EVER need it, but I'd rather have one and never need it than guarantee the possible death or harm of myself and my family because I printed out the Constitution, balled it up, placed it in the toilet, urinated on it and flushed. There's a reason why if you live in Britain, for example, that you're more likely to be burgled when you're home, versus anywhere in the United States.

    At the end of the day, if you're afraid of guns then that's fine. But you don't get to take away my right to defend myself as a result of your fear. Most of the people out on the roads are idiots and it's a mystery how they passed driver's training, but I would never propose we should ban cars.
  9. Winston's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by RhythmOvPain
    Dude he literally just said he was a MG specialist in the military. xD
    I think he might have been posting that for TE, or just anybody interested. Yeah, I've started plinking with my friend "The Butcher" in high school. No, he really was a butcher, worked at his dad's meat shop. We were hooligans, shooting up road signs and stuff. And drinking. A lot. And I am still alive.

    I already own a few handguns. None of them are optimal for concealed carry. My Glock 19 is heavy and bulky, despite being "compact". I have a Tokarev that is slim and light, but the rounds over-penetrate (not good in a crowd).
    I'm looking at getting a North American Arms .22mag. The problem with most small guns is your follow-up shot will be no where near the target (lightweight gun w/ small grip = unmanageable recoil). The NAA .22mag has light recoil and is tiny. I can literally carry it in an Altoids tin. The .22 magnum is close in stopping power to the .380. Safe, reliable 5 shot revolver, MSRP $220.

    For our friends "across the pond", I apologize if this stuff is frightening. Many of us grew-up around this, and it is not foreign at all.
    I enjoy recreational target shooting (vintage rifles, mostly). I like having weapons at home (secured, but ready) for self-defense. But the world today is f-ed up. Violence isn't everywhere, but it can be anywhere. I wish violence could be stopped with reason and love. Until that Utopia magically appears, people... some people... must be ready to meet violence with violence. Not due to hate or fear, but because we like people. Passivity begs for aggression.
    Some of us can't, and won't "play dead" or run away. And as I said, I'd rather not have to take out a bad guy with a gun using a rock or stick.
  10. Plasticweld's Avatar
    The link is for Tuesdayeve

    It does not matter if you have military experience or not. Most of the benefits of the firearm courses are for what the legal issues are concerning judicious use of force. Knowing the law and knowing what to do and say in the event that you have to use a firearm to protect either you or your family, maybe the difference between not being charged and not being sued. There is a huge responsibility in carrying a gun, knowing the mechanics as well as the ramifications of using it are part of just being responsible.
  11. RhythmOvPain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasticweld
    HERE Eve this is a good place to start. My brother is a firearms instructor and he often teaches students such as yourself.

    Good training in use and in the laws takes away your apprehension. I can't recommend it enough.
    Dude he literally just said he was a MG specialist in the military. xD
  12. RhythmOvPain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by TuesdayEve
    Thanks for the info ROP... you’re right about
    finding one that I feel comfortable handling,
    others have given the same advice.
    While it isn’t foremost in my mind, it hasn’t
    left my mind.
    The point of sidearms is to provide a person with adequate protection in the face of a crisis situation. First and foremost, an individual's choice of sidearm is entirely preferential, but optimally fits the personal requirements and functional necessesity of self-defense while giving the same air of self-gratification as a preferred cell phone or car, or just an accessory to be worn with dignity and pride.

    EDIT - Just as an interesting tidbit, a new Sccy 9-mil costs roughly $250USD, and very rarely does a handgun breach $800 stock regardless of its name or caliber.

    A new CAR costs at LEAST $9,000 AND UPWARDS OF $100,000. A NEW PHONE IS OVER $1000.

    People wonder about whether guns are good or bad, but give not one shit that any schmuck with a 4-hour shift can buy one within the span of a month.
  13. Plasticweld's Avatar
    [B][URL="http://www.nrainstructors.org/CatalogInfo.aspx?cid=14"][COLOR=#40e0d0]HERE[/COLOR][/URL][/B] Eve this is a good place to start. My brother is a firearms instructor and he often teaches students such as yourself.

    Good training in use and in the laws takes away your apprehension. I can't recommend it enough.
  14. H.Brown's Avatar
    See in England we don't carry guns, the only time you can get a permit is for hunting or gun range, I think. So for me the issue of carying a gun seems terrifying and strange. I can understand having one for personal protection, but don't think I would want one of my own.
  15. TuesdayEve's Avatar
    Thanks for the info ROP... you’re right about
    finding one that I feel comfortable handling,
    others have given the same advice.
    While it isn’t foremost in my mind, it hasn’t
    left my mind.
  16. dither's Avatar
    Jeez guys,
    this is scary.
  17. TuesdayEve's Avatar
    I know nothing
    about guns, although I did shoot my uncles
    38 years ago... it was much heavier than they
    look on tv. first, as advised, get my FOID card.
    Updated March 26th, 2018 at 06:38 PM by TuesdayEve
  18. RhythmOvPain's Avatar
    Your best option is to find the gun that feels most comfortable in your hand.

    As much as I LOVED my Beretta, I also like Sccy for their price and functionality, and aesthetically, they stand up to HK and Glock.

    Some people like 380s or 38 customs, but I think it falls into the category of "fukit, this is a gun."

    My friend had a .50 cal DEagle, which I honestly hated. I'd rather shoot a standard M1911.
  19. TuesdayEve's Avatar
    I’ve always had a strong body, been
    athletic and had physically demanding
    work but now in my sixties, with a bad
    hip, I’m feeling more vunerable as the
    news says, no where is safe. If some
    coward were to attack me, what am I
    gonna do...run? So, a small gun for my
    pocket is an option I’ve been thinking
    about.
  20. Winston's Avatar
    I don't know why it took me so long to do this. I suppose before (whenever before was) people were different. We didn't literally lay down and die when attacked. People fought back. Now, if I'm in a life or death situation, I realize that I will be fighting back alone.
    This really is a metaphor for life today. "Someone else" will solve whatever problem arises. I'm sure as hell not betting my life on that.
    So yeah, I'm not so gung-ho conceal carrying. It's a necessary evil. Times change.
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