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Stormcat
August 21st, 2020, 01:35 AM
Misogyny can take many forms. Whether it's the generations of men telling their sons not to do "Girly" things or women who gossip how one of their more successful female coworkers must've slept with someone to earn her promotion (rather than having earned it by her own merits). But I'm not talking about microaggressions in this case. I'm crafting a villain whose hatred for my MC stems largely from the fact she is female.

My MC is a young, moderately attractive, allegedly fertile female person who, upon being forced into marriage with the Grand Prince of the Realm earns the ire of this villain because A) he did not get to marry her himself B) Through said marriage to the Grand Prince MC's virginity can no longer be assured C) MC actually seems to like her husband D) MC is "allowed" to get away with things this villain has women locked up for.

So we will eventually come across a scene where MC and the villain interact (whether or not MC's husband is present, I haven't decided yet.) How should they interact? I have a good idea of my MC's actions and reactions, but what about this antagonist? Should he lay on the charm at first or cut straight to the hate? Does his behavior change is the husband is present or not? How does he interact with "The Boys" and there are no females present?

luckyscars
August 21st, 2020, 02:21 AM
I find fictionalized misogyny, like fictionalized racism, more effective when it's subtle. I don't think there are very many openly misogynistic people around these days, but I do think there are a lot of misogynists who hide it, perhaps under some kind of paternalistic veneer.

I also like the idea of people overcompensating. I think when you get something like a preacher who goes on endlessly about the importance of 'traditional marriage' who then turns out to be sleeping with teenage boys on the quiet, that's a far darker form of villainy than, say, the Westboro Baptist Church screaming 'FAGGOT'.

Lee Messer
August 21st, 2020, 03:08 AM
Yeah. Most are subtle when they know other people will react badly to it.

When alone, the beast should com out.

bdcharles
August 21st, 2020, 08:42 AM
MY own antagonist is kind of a mysogynist who is patronising around women, undercutting them at every turn while smiling and claiming he is "only joking" and so on. Could try something like that?

ehbowen
August 21st, 2020, 09:55 AM
I''d point out the old saying (would have to Google it for the source): "The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference." I'd write the character as someone who treats women like furniture, ignoring them and never believing that they are capable of anything beyond looking pretty. Active "hate" as you envision might entail someone setting up tests designed to make the woman fail...but, then, there's always a chance that she might pass the test. Indifference would never let her take any kind of such test at all, presuming she'd fail from the get-go.

Lee Messer
August 21st, 2020, 11:31 AM
Misogyny can take many forms. Whether it's the generations of men telling their sons not to do "Girly" things or women who gossip how one of their more successful female coworkers must've slept with someone to earn her promotion (rather than having earned it by her own merits). But I'm not talking about microaggressions in this case. I'm crafting a villain whose hatred for my MC stems largely from the fact she is female.

My MC is a young, moderately attractive, allegedly fertile female person who, upon being forced into marriage with the Grand Prince of the Realm earns the ire of this villain because A) he did not get to marry her himself B) Through said marriage to the Grand Prince MC's virginity can no longer be assured C) MC actually seems to like her husband D) MC is "allowed" to get away with things this villain has women locked up for.

So we will eventually come across a scene where MC and the villain interact (whether or not MC's husband is present, I haven't decided yet.) How should they interact? I have a good idea of my MC's actions and reactions, but what about this antagonist? Should he lay on the charm at first or cut straight to the hate? Does his behavior change is the husband is present or not? How does he interact with "The Boys" and there are no females present?


The context suggests he won't be dismissive. He'll make it a point as soon as they are alone. Otherwise, I imagine he would be condescending in a subtle way. Maybe by bringing up the subject of the things she's getting away with that wouldn't normally be allowed if he were in charge.

If he's particularly evil. He may threaten her life, or make a suggestion about what he normally does to women like her. Again, If he's not stupid, he would do that in private. This sometimes happens with big companies in real life. I used to date a woman who worked in HR. She had some horror stories to tell.

Stormcat
August 21st, 2020, 02:35 PM
If he's particularly evil. He may threaten her life, or make a suggestion about what he normally does to women like her. Again, If he's not stupid, he would do that in private. This sometimes happens with big companies in real life. I used to date a woman who worked in HR. She had some horror stories to tell.

Perhaps some of those stories could give me ideas for this guy. Would you mind sharing a few?

Lee Messer
August 21st, 2020, 02:59 PM
Sure I can help. I'll give you a choice by category (These are all Caterpillar):

Girl feels obligated to sleep with three diffferent supervisors to get ahead, only they don't know about each other.
Black man harassed by human feces on his desk daily
Supervisor requires females to have sex with him to keep their jobs after they miss too much work. Gets caught red handed multiple times but they never get rid of him because he calls racism and threatens to sue (my boss)
Two ex-strippers hired off the street with no credentials straight into management positions
The great 2007 porno scandal (my boss) (this one got over 400 people fired companywide)
Boss dates girl who works for him, sexually abuses her, then she blackmails him into letting her not have to work anymore. She just shows up and everyone else does her job. She gets transferred same thing happens with different supervisor only he fires her immediately.

There's more if I can think about it.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. There was a building behind the factory that was empty. They called it "The Hotel". Matresses on the floor in multiple rooms. Pretty nasty. It got torn down in the 90s I think. people started taking pictures.

Stormcat
August 21st, 2020, 04:20 PM
Sure I can help. I'll give you a choice by category (These are all Caterpillar):

Girl feels obligated to sleep with three diffferent supervisors to get ahead, only they don't know about each other.
Black man harassed by human feces on his desk daily
Supervisor requires females to have sex with him to keep their jobs after they miss too much work. Gets caught red handed multiple times but they never get rid of him because he calls racism and threatens to sue (my boss)
Two ex-strippers hired off the street with no credentials straight into management positions
The great 2007 porno scandal (my boss) (this one got over 400 people fired companywide)
Boss dates girl who works for him, sexually abuses her, then she blackmails him into letting her not have to work anymore. She just shows up and everyone else does her job. She gets transferred same thing happens with different supervisor only he fires her immediately.

There's more if I can think about it.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. There was a building behind the factory that was empty. They called it "The Hotel". Matresses on the floor in multiple rooms. Pretty nasty. It got torn down in the 90s I think. people started taking pictures.

These stories make me sick (which is I guess a good thing here) thank you.

Hmm... Yet this antagonist doesn't hold any direct authority over MC, so he can't really coerce her to sleep with him. I think I will take the feces story and run with it though.

Lee Messer
August 21st, 2020, 04:40 PM
I don't think that one relates to mysogny. I kinda just went through my memory without thinking about it. The closest one I think is my Boss.
He would outsmart them by getting them alone. Sometimes during a job evaluation (he did these often), usually when someone screwed up. He would use any leverage to get what he wanted.
If he found them to be ambitious (and I knew some of these women so I knew what he did, it was in their personality), he would promise advancement. If they missed work, and were relativity good-looking, He'd threaten them. Many of these women were single mothers, or struggling to make ends meet. Sometimes they were abused by their boyfriends too. He could recognize weaknesses. He got caught outside the tavern with one of them up against the wall. I could only wonder what he said, but I do know they all hated him. The second time, it was in an SUV outside that same bar. People reported it, because all of the taverns were close to the factory. Everyone stopped on second shift to get a couple drinks before going home. Sometimes, they stayed longer, but he would buy everyone drinks and sit back and wait.

He would get them alone, and while other girls got wrote up for mistakes or missing work... these girls never did. They really hated him though. Sometimes when he would take one girl for an evaluation I'd see this look on another girl's face. Didn't think about it til all the details came out. He did tons more stuff before they finally were able to get rid of him. At one point he went to the NAACP when they tried to fire him. Turns out there were other supervisors who were doing the same thing... pretty systemic problem at that company. Took about two years of him consistently, and fairly blatantly doing this. He kept getting caught too. Probably make you sick to know he was 'happily' married with children. Went to a few of his barbeques. His wife seemed to be happy.

Anyway, I would figure he hates women.

Taylor
August 22nd, 2020, 04:31 PM
There are a lot different types of mysogonists. I would think that something would have happened to them at some point in their life to make them hate women. And likely, an experience they had with a woman. Hurt, neglect, or some sort of trauma caused by a woman they trusted.

It might help to work that out off-page inorder to understand this characters motivations. For example:

He may have been very much in love with a woman who spurned him. In this case, I would think he may have developed a charming outer layer to attract women, and then find ways to hurt them as a way to sort of 'get back' at women in general for what happened to him. It is his insecurity speaking. He has to keep getting women to fall in love with him as he needs to continually prove to himself that this other women made a mistake. But once he gets them to be attracted to him, boom, all of a sudden he finds a way to hurt them.

It could be that he was neglected by his own mother. His actions and motivations would be entirely different. In this case, he might earn the woman's trust by being very supportive and acting like he wishes to help her in some way. They become great friends, but then after some time, he starts to give backhanded compliments, or make sublte put downs. At first she thinks she misunderstood, but then the frequency of the comments makes it apparent he wants to hurt her. Perhaps she calls him on it, and he tells her she is just too sensitive.

And of course, as you say, that he is immitating what he saw his role models do when he was growing up. This could be a interesting one, because your protagonists could help change him. Help him to see what he is doing and that it's not really how he wants to be.

Have fun with your character!

Stormcat
August 22nd, 2020, 06:01 PM
There are a lot different types of mysogonists. I would think that something would have happened to them at some point in their life to make them hate women. And likely, an experience they had with a woman. Hurt, neglect, or some sort of trauma caused by a woman they trusted.


Nothing of the sort happened.

He's just an entitled little prick who believes that everyone owes him something (In the case of women that "something" is usually sex)

Taylor
August 22nd, 2020, 06:54 PM
Nothing of the sort happened.

He's just an entitled little prick who believes that everyone owes him something (In the case of women that "something" is usually sex)

I understand, but how did he get that way? Part of his genetic makeup? Or something he was told as a child?

I think in this circumstance, he would have to be charming to begin with. Unless he has something over her, which it doesn't sound like he does, then if his main goal is for sex, he would act in a way that would further his goal. Being mean to her at the get go, doesn't make sense. What incentive would she have to partake. He might also lure her in with his charms and then try to make her jealous, so he has controll over her, and this is perhaps when she gives in.

You could make him very flirtatious, and then he falls into another persona...almost like a Jekkell and Hyde sort of thing. Could he buy her gifts, or cater to her needs in some way?

Your description, doesn't scream mysogony to me. If he is entitled and expects 'everyone' owes him something, then his action may not be in alignment with just hating women. What I think of when I read that desription, is that he may be a narcissist as well. So in other words, he doesn't hate woman, he just doesn't think of them in any other way than that they are for his pleasure.

Have you studied Harvey Weinstien for personality traits and motives. He sounds like your description. I believe he was mean or at least demanding with them from the begining. Of course, what he lorded over them was the proverbial casting couch. Although they do call him a mysogonist. There are lots of testimonies of the women out there. They would be good to read for research purposes.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/harvey-weinstein-feminism-men

Stormcat
August 22nd, 2020, 07:30 PM
I understand, but how did he get that way? Part of his genetic makeup? Or something he was told as a child?


A little bit of both. He was raised in a society that taught him that men were always superior to women, and he was doted on by his parents (his mother even allowed him to abuse her).

It's also worth noting that this society is extremely religious and his family runs a "Charity" for "fallen women" akin to the Magdalene Laundries of Ireland. Rampant abuse takes place in those places and This bastard abuses quite a few of the inmates there. He often uses being sent to the "Charity" as a way to threaten women to do what he wants, but it doesn't quite work on my Protagonist as she is married to a husband who wants to keep her around.

Lee Messer
August 22nd, 2020, 10:09 PM
A little bit of both. He was raised in a society that taught him that men were always superior to women, and he was doted on by his parents (his mother even allowed him to abuse her).

It's also worth noting that this society is extremely religious and his family runs a "Charity" for "fallen women" akin to the Magdalene Laundries of Ireland. Rampant abuse takes place in those places and This bastard abuses quite a few of the inmates there. He often uses being sent to the "Charity" as a way to threaten women to do what he wants, but it doesn't quite work on my Protagonist as she is married to a husband who wants to keep her around.

I'm a man, and even I think that is truly vile. Using a charity?
What needs to be understood about evil men and sex.
An evil man has to "perform" (He has to be turned on).
Only a truly evil man can be turned on by a woman's suffering.
If she willingly does something he wants is one thing, but if she does it unwillingly it's sheer degradation.
The worse it can be and him still being able to perform... the more evil he is.
This is why serial rapists get so many years in prison without committing murder. It is a truly evil act.

Llyralen
November 9th, 2020, 10:00 PM
Sylvia Plath describes a real date with a man in The Bell Jar where she said something like ďIíd never met a man who hated women before.Ē It was very interesting and you might want to read it. I read it probably 25 years ago so I canít recall the story well enough to recount without worrying about my accuracy; although the main things that happened were very memorable, but it was a very bitter poignant experience.

I talked to someone on a different forum who Iíve identified as a man who hates women. What I see is that he seriously resents the power women have over him. He sees himself as powerless to a womanís sex appeal and sees himself as a helpless slave in a womanís presenceó or maybe misinterprets the motivation of women as wanting men to be helpless and subservient in a womanís presence. He only relates to other men, seeing women as predators and aliens. He blames most of societyís problems on women believing that most men are powerless against their need for sex. In his mind most predatory men are victims. He fears women being in positions of power. I also think the British Victorian author Trollop might have hated women. If they werenít too sexually powerful they were stupid victims. There are just little jabs that make you see that he hated any power women tried to presume over menó even men who were supposed to be helping them. Dickens had a mixed relationship. The Cohen brothers in film also have this difficulty with women as far as I can see. It is very interesting I think... the general principal underlying all of this to me is that if men overly associate women with sexual objects that they are powerless to and who are inconvenient then they have a harder time identifying with women as fellow human beings with similar thoughts and emotions. Personally I know that men and women arenít too differentó our brain scans are identical after reproductive years. Iím a woman, but i have good relationships with men and donít see us as being too different. Oh... also research the Incel movement which shows the same kind of helplessness and rage at their desire for women physically yet see women as alien.

Greyson
November 9th, 2020, 11:04 PM
Llyralen made several good points above, and i just wanted to corroborate her thoughts. you might look up contra-points on youtube for her discussion of incel culture. note she can be political and i don't mean to push an agenda, she is rather academic in this particular video. you can also find 'reasoning' for this sort of stuff in philosophers like aristotle or david hume. the latter accused women of being sexual vixens whose sole purpose in life was to seduce men away from their 'important work.' the buddha is also well known for such positions. and while this might sound counter-intuitive, feminist literature likely is a good source of information/inspiration. some of the work there is unpacking and addressing the misconceptions or aggressive opinions people have on women.

i think, depending on how you envision the antagonist, you can approach the topic in a few ways. in the case of our philosophical misogynists, they offer 'reasonable' arguments, making the hate more veiled. this is still a common tactic some misogynists take today, appearing to be reasonable and essentially dog-whistling their beliefs. this might look like someone who says "well, women in power would be great. but with their natural disposition to bear children and their hormonal variations, it could cause some difficulties in reliability". sounds reasonable -- at least, they're not saying 'women bad' -- but has some clear under pinnings.

if, on the other hand, this person is more powerful or masculine, they might be more forward in their statements. someone who feels they have nothing to hide or is confident in the validity of their position won't mince words. if they truly dislike someone, and in this case are alone with them as well, they likely have little remorse for speaking their mind. especially if they have power since you have the whole "who will believe you?" issue. if the character feels they can say anything, consequences be damned (because they doubt there will be any), then it makes sense to have them be blatant with it.

Stormcat
November 10th, 2020, 02:00 AM
Sylvia Plath describes a real date with a man in The Bell Jar where she said something like “I’d never met a man who hated women before.” It was very interesting and you might want to read it. I read it probably 25 years ago so I can’t recall the story well enough to recount without worrying about my accuracy; although the main things that happened were very memorable, but it was a very bitter poignant experience.

I talked to someone on a different forum who I’ve identified as a man who hates women. What I see is that he seriously resents the power women have over him. He sees himself as powerless to a woman’s sex appeal and sees himself as a helpless slave in a woman’s presence— or maybe misinterprets the motivation of women as wanting men to be helpless and subservient in a woman’s presence. He only relates to other men, seeing women as predators and aliens. He blames most of society’s problems on women believing that most men are powerless against their need for sex. In his mind most predatory men are victims. He fears women being in positions of power. I also think the British Victorian author Trollop might have hated women. If they weren’t too sexually powerful they were stupid victims. There are just little jabs that make you see that he hated any power women tried to presume over men— even men who were supposed to be helping them. Dickens had a mixed relationship. The Cohen brothers in film also have this difficulty with women as far as I can see. It is very interesting I think... the general principal underlying all of this to me is that if men overly associate women with sexual objects that they are powerless to and who are inconvenient then they have a harder time identifying with women as fellow human beings with similar thoughts and emotions. Personally I know that men and women aren’t too different— our brain scans are identical after reproductive years. I’m a woman, but i have good relationships with men and don’t see us as being too different. Oh... also research the Incel movement which shows the same kind of helplessness and rage at their desire for women physically yet see women as alien.

Oh I'm all too familiar with the world of incels, and I can say confidently, this guy is not an incel. He's good-looking, practices good hygiene, rich, and can get all the sex he wants (even if it's usually by force). Incels I believe are just a bunch of whiny man-babies who don't realize they create their own problems and occasionally lash out violently.

That bit about the Bell Jar is worth a look see though.

Squalid Glass
November 10th, 2020, 04:20 AM
No matter what, you should just read The Bell Jar ​because it's one of the best novels of the 20th century.

Llyralen
November 10th, 2020, 05:40 AM
Oh I'm all too familiar with the world of incels, and I can say confidently, this guy is not an incel. He's good-looking, practices good hygiene, rich, and can get all the sex he wants (even if it's usually by force). Incels I believe are just a bunch of whiny man-babies who don't realize they create their own problems and occasionally lash out violently.

That bit about the Bell Jar is worth a look see though.

Im just trying to help, but I think it’s complex whenever anyone has a strange hatred of what they actually crave the most. The man I spoke to wasn’t an incel, but his mind worked in the same processes even if he has sex often with who he wants to— and he thinks he can, i believe. He also has money. But it’s still the same kind of thinking, that hatred of wanting something from someone who you look down on, I’d guess. Either that or wanting something they think they will never get if they’ve only gotten it with money? I also did meet someone who was always thinking about violence and talking about reasons for violence but when it came down to it the people he threatened were young mothers. I do think there was a mother-hatred there. I can’t remember if you said your character would be a killer? George Hodel, the Black Dahlia Miller plus a bunch of murders besides was one of the most wealthy and powerful men of his day— there’s a show out about him with Chris Pine called “I Am the Night” on Hulu right now. It’s pretty disturbing. His family also made a podcast about it all “Root of Evil” very disturbing. I guess it depends on how far you want to go. I’m not quite understanding your dismissive tone of something so complex it makes people violent.

You could study the US President, I guess for a bit lighter hatred + narcissism. But maybe you already know in what way your character hates women? This was my first post on this forum and took your thoughts as a bit dismissive, but I guess a lot of people do that with Incels until they study it a bit and it is pretty complex, imo. Good luck.

OliviaM
November 10th, 2020, 08:50 PM
I find fictionalized misogyny, like fictionalized racism, more effective when it's subtle. I don't think there are very many openly misogynistic people around these days, but I do think there are a lot of misogynists who hide it, perhaps under some kind of paternalistic veneer.

I also like the idea of people overcompensating. I think when you get something like a preacher who goes on endlessly about the importance of 'traditional marriage' who then turns out to be sleeping with teenage boys on the quiet, that's a far darker form of villainy than, say, the Westboro Baptist Church screaming 'FAGGOT'.
your idea sounds great!

Stormcat
November 11th, 2020, 01:06 AM
You could study the US President, I guess for a bit lighter hatred + narcissism. But maybe you already know in what way your character hates women? This was my first post on this forum and took your thoughts as a bit dismissive, but I guess a lot of people do that with Incels until they study it a bit and it is pretty complex, imo. Good luck.

Basically, he views them as a commodity to be owned and used. He divides women into little categories not unlike the way women were classified in "The Handmaid's Tale" Wife material at the top, then f*cking material, then servant material, and finally, un-women. (Most women end up in the "un-woman" category in his eyes).

He nearly had the opportunity to "own" (marry) my protagonist, but her actual husband got the honor because despite all this, he outranks antagonist politically (Protagonist's husband is heir to the empire, Antagonist is just a lowly count). This makes antagonist jealous of protagonist's husband, and upon learning that they have not consummated their marriage, He decides to try and steal protagonist's virginity and make her husband look like a wimp.

vranger
November 13th, 2020, 10:56 AM
Try reading Pygmalion.

alpacinoutd
November 17th, 2020, 11:08 AM
I agree with those who say the character's misogyny ought to be more implicit than explicit.

See this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRRBVV3StJM

Some might say that misogynistic behavior. But it's not explicit at all.