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Firemajic
March 19th, 2018, 11:06 PM
All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling [ Oscar Wilde ]. All good poetry springs from genuine feeling. But emotion is not enough...is it... I mean we ALL have them... those emotions we NEED to share... but there is more needed... there is language... Poetic language... what is that? Is that the same as having a good vocabulary? Yes... and no... Yes, you need a good vocabulary... but you also need to know HOW to use it in a poetic way...
Enhance your vocabulary... read poetry, what sounds lyrical, why does a certain phrase stir your emotions... how did the poet use it? Was it used in a unique way? Did the poet make you see/ feel something new? Show you something familiar in a new, unique way?

Write to be unraveled.... OMG!!! Now I am coming unraveled... does this mean I unravel myself trying to write a poem?? No... it means let your reader discover the nuances and layers of your poem... well damn... how do I get layers in my poem? Use metaphors, analogies, ironies and images... hummmm.... but I don't know about metaphors... they are intimidating....

All good poetry should make you FEEL something! Well, how can I "feel something" if I have to unravel it first?

now I am overwhelmed... Writing poetry is hard work! I thought all I had to do was write emotionally... but now I understand I have to do more... be more...

Ok... I HAVE the emotion... now how do I present that emotion in a NEW, unique way.... ahhhh.... now that is the tricky part....

This is all daunting... right? Well... no....

TuesdayEve
March 19th, 2018, 11:36 PM
I have a question, how do you tell the difference
between metaphor and imagery or metaphor and
telling? Often, I canít tell the difference reading
some poems ... I think itís a literal reading until the
poet explains itís metaphoric. My own feelings or
interpretation are important but Iím missing the intent
or the poetís truth, which Iím interested in as well.

So, is it safe to say, ďOne womanís metaphor is another
womanís realityĒ

Firemajic
March 19th, 2018, 11:46 PM
A metaphor is a figure of speech that shows similarities between two ideas...There are several metaphor threads in the poetry discussion thread that may answer your question better than I can... I find them intimidating... and like you, I almost always read a poem literally... I rarely hunt for hidden meanings, unless the poet is very clever...

Firemajic
March 20th, 2018, 12:03 AM
Tuesday, here is a common metaphor ... "She has a heart of gold"....and this "I have a broken heart".... reading these, you know that no one has a heart of "GOLD"... But what does a heart of gold imply? I have a broken heart.... no one really has a broken heart... but what does it mean? These are common metaphors, just to get you going in the right direction... most poets use a more complex metaphor....

Firemajic
March 20th, 2018, 12:09 AM
I hope all of the Pippers are paying attention to this discussion... it could take you by surprise and bite you in the ass... metaphorically speaking... of course... ;)

Olly Buckle
March 20th, 2018, 12:23 AM
Simile and metaphor go together.
Simile tells you something is like something it isn't. "She is as good as gold"
Metaphor tells you that something actually is something it isn't. "She is a golden girl"

I would be careful talking about 'poetic language', firemajic. For a lot of people that means using uncommon or old fashioned words, like 'thou art', not actually poetic at all.
Not sure, but I think what poetry does most is say more than the actual words, it tells you something that is beyond what is written. I suppose all good writing does that to a degree, but poetry is concentrated.

Firemajic
March 20th, 2018, 12:33 AM
Simile and metaphor go together.
Simile tells you something is like something it isn't. "She is as good as gold"
Metaphor tells you that something actually is something it isn't. "She is a golden girl"

I would be careful talking about 'poetic language', firemajic. For a lot of people that means using uncommon or old fashioned words, like 'thou art', not actually poetic at all.
Not sure, but I think what poetry does most is say more than the actual words, it tells you something that is beyond what is written. I suppose all good writing does that to a degree, but poetry is concentrated.


I will have to remember that... "A metaphor tells you that something actually is something it isn't."

Well, I thought I was clear about the use of poetic language... saying something different to make it sound new.... and unique... but maybe not... we will see who is paying attention... ;)

TuesdayEve
March 20th, 2018, 01:31 AM
‘That it isn’t’... that somehow strikes me as lying...
Most would disagree and say it’s a different way of
telling the truth... Simile is much easier as it seem
like a comparison rather than a substitution.

RHPeat once said, speaking in metaphor is
different than writing in metaphor...
and since then I have become very aware of verbal
metaphor and just how common we use it without
thinking, often as a knee jerk answer or description...
In fact, I’ve used a couple above...

But writing metaphor doesn’t come naturally to me
and while I have written metaphoric poems, I can
honestly say it wasn’t on purpose. The words wrote
themselves, I supplied the emotion.
The intention of writing metaphor draws a
blank then confusion and I veer back to imagery
and ‘telling’.
Is one woman’s metaphor another woman’s reality?

Firemajic
March 20th, 2018, 01:41 AM
No, one poet's metaphor can be a reader's nervous breakdown.... ;) you do not have to use metaphors to write poetry... there are many other poetic devices....and like you, I NEVER intentionally write a poem using a metaphor... sometimes, it just happens... and that is the BEST way to sneak in a metaphor ;) [ JMO] without coming unraveled...

TuesdayEve
March 20th, 2018, 01:50 AM
Recently, I read one of TLMurphy’s poems, Zen
View, as I read it I felt it as literal. After commenting,
I had the thought he is a metaphoric poet....was this
poem a metaphor for something I didn’t see...I asked
him...

He gave the perfect answer... he said it’s both... real
and metaphor... I decided to view it as literal and feel
the words as written, which were very powerful and
relateable...but still, did I miss something?
Or does it matter?

Firemajic
March 20th, 2018, 01:56 AM
For me, it would not matter... if I, the reader, came away with something, that meant something to ME... then that's cool... If I wrote a poem, and someone did not "get" the metaphor, but still connected with my poem... I would be cool with that...

TuesdayEve
March 20th, 2018, 02:02 AM
Fire, that was so funny... can I add that to the favorite
quotes thread?
’One poets metaphor can be a readers nervous
breakdown’... that’s so true.

Firemajic
March 20th, 2018, 02:09 AM
yes... you may... and maybe we should demand that all poets use it as a disclaimer, when they post a metaphorical poem... you know... like the warning on a cigarette pack... ;)

Pelwrath
March 21st, 2018, 01:03 AM
To me, writing poetry is the ability(art?) of enticing readers into the poem such that they don't know they've joined you in a dream.

TL Murphy
March 24th, 2018, 01:59 AM
I want to address Tuesday's comment in #2 first and Fire's comment in #1 second.

"Telling" is explaining. It's logical and expository. It uses analytical language. And because the ego functions on this level of consciousness, it's hard to turn it off learn how not to explain what you want to say, but instead, lay it out in images that raise the reader's recognition in a way that the reader can discover what you are saying by himself without being told. This is also the best way to teach, by leading students to discover things on their own rather tham lecturing them. An "image" is just an image: a shoe, a mountain, a green cloud, a clown on a bicycle. The image becomes a metaphor through the context of the poem. In other words, you build a world in the poem within which, the image takes on a role and imparts more meaning than what is immediately apparent on the surface. An isolated image is not a metaphor but the context that the image floats in makes it meaningful through association. Metaphor is all about association. A metaphor shows us how one thing is the same as another thing and if we can grasp the role of the first we can grasp the signifigance of the other. So a metaphor isn't a lie. It doesn't say that black is white. Metaphor relies on the principal that patterns repeat throughout the universe, and if you can show a simple relationship, for example, between a flower and a bee, the reader understands that this same relationship exists in many other contexts throughout the universe and also within the human condition. Telling the reader about the flower and the bee doesn't convey the feeling of experiencing the flower and the bee. It is the relationship between images that makes images into metaphors. This is a much more powerful form of communication than explaining, because explaining what you mean relies on logic and analytical thought, which is a very small part of the brain's capacity and it tends to get locked up in semantics and abstraction, where metaphors open up a much broader part of the mind that is able to access emotions, memories, physical sensation and even metaphysical understanding.

Poetry is elevated language. Saying the best thing in the best way. Telling is rhetorical and relies on the power of persuasion. Metaphor is metaphysical and relies on the power of association, i.e., experience.

Theglasshouse
April 6th, 2018, 04:54 PM
I've got a question, but anyone can answer this. I want to explore metaphors and get a sense for them. Would surrealistic poetry help me see some brilliant metaphors? And what other genres of poetry might be of help to see such metaphors appear more obvious. I don't don't know if my supposition is correct. I am interested in knowing since I want to read some more.

Edit: sort of found the answer. All poetry is a metaphor. But the language needs to be constructed so that the metaphor can be supported sort of like an argument. At least that is what I think.

Darkkin
April 6th, 2018, 07:36 PM
The statement all poetry is a metaphor is akin to saying the sky is red. There are no Sith in poetry and only Sith deal in absolutes. An example" I'm a literal translator and as a writer, I can honestly say I don't write in metaphor, quite literally cannot. If all poetry is metaphor and I cannot understand or write it, everything I have written is essentially gibberish as it is not metaphor. Be aware of blanket statements. Like the best laid plans they can collapse under their own weight.

Look at poets like Robert Frost, Mary Oliver, and Charles Bukowski. Enjoyable poetry that captures a moment but is not steeped in metaphor. What metaphor is to be affixed to The Song of Hiawatha or Tennyson's The Lady of Shalott? What about Silverstein's Where the Sidewalk Ends and The Invitation? What about Longfellow's Wreck of the Hesperus and Patterson's The Man from Snowy River, not to mention Lear's The Owl and the Pussy Cat. Story for the sake of story applies as much to poetry as it does to prose. Readers can find and expound on discovered metaphors all they want, it does not mean that what the reader discerns was the author's intent. It is a programming quirk of the human mind.

Metaphor is essential observed, translated, and determined by the precepts of the individual. It is not all or nothing.

Firemajic
April 6th, 2018, 08:45 PM
[/I]What about Hawthorne's Wreck of the Hesperus


Longfellow wrote the Wreck of the Hesperus....Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.... The first poem my GrandMam read to me... I Love that poem and that straightforward style... he told a heartbreaking story of a Man and his love for his tiny daughter, and their battle for survival on the ominous sea...and the tragic loss on the reef of Norman's Woe...

I don't use metaphors in my poetry, unless one sneaks in, accidently... and then someone has to point it out to me, before I realize it is even there... ;)

Glass, when writing poetry, you will develop your own style... you might use metaphors or you may not, but NOT using a metaphor does NOT mean it is not poetry....

Darkkin
April 6th, 2018, 08:56 PM
Edited the oops.

Theglasshouse
April 6th, 2018, 09:02 PM
Sorry for the ignorant comment and delay in replying. I am interested in poetry but I needed guidance in formulating my opinions. I already located some primers for poetry, when I was thinking on my opinion on poetry. I will just say that I am planning on studying it again. This time I did find a good introductory book. Of course, I think I could use the brushing up on poetry from high school, and with my current standards for writing poetry which is not very high right now.

Why was I interested in metaphor? Because at first, I read far back that fiction is sort of a metaphor. I like that poetry can express feelings so I am interested in it to analyze feelings, and see how I can more effectively describe. Fiction has feelings too, and that is why I am interested in it as poetry is a way of expressing the feelings more effectively. It's a good way to heal, but I want to learn more to see how I do, if better at expressing feelings. Without feelings, you have puppet characters. And you cannot move a reader.

To darkkin and to firemajic: yes I acknowledge that you can have poetry without metaphor.

Firemajic
April 6th, 2018, 09:06 PM
Edited the oops.


;)

Firemajic
April 6th, 2018, 09:13 PM
Sorry for the ignorant comment and delay in replying. I am interested in poetry but I needed guidance in formulating my opinions. I already located some primers for poetry, when I was thinking on my opinion on poetry. I will just say that I am planning on studying it again. This time I did find a good introductory book. Of course, I think I could use the brushing up on poetry from high school, and with my current standards for writing poetry which is not very high right now.

Why was I interested in metaphor? Because at first, I read far back that fiction is sort of a metaphor. I like that poetry can express feelings so I am interested in it to analyze feelings, and see how I can more effectively describe. Fiction has feelings too, and that is why I am interested in it as poetry is a way of expressing the feelings more effectively. It's a good way to heal, but I want to learn more to see how I do, if better at expressing feelings. Without feelings, you have puppet characters. And you cannot move a reader.

to firemajic: yes I acknowledge that you can have poetry without metaphor.


Dear Glass, your comment was not ignorant... at all ;)

I had a different approach to writing poetry.... I ... um.... just started writing! That's my advice... start writing.. sure... study form and stuff like that, but READ GOOD poetry... read IT.... I was so blessed... my GrandMam started reading poetry to me when I was two years old... so I HEARD the rhythm... I did not know how the rhythm was achieved... but I HEARD it... and that is how I wrote it.... it was not until I came here, to WF that I started to understand the why and how of poetry, but I had already been writing for years.... don't become overwhelmed... start writing...

Theglasshouse
April 6th, 2018, 09:32 PM
Thanks for the encouragement. I think experience is a good teacher. So is reading poetry. That's the approach I will take when I buy the books on poetry. I need it because I nothing has been working so far. It even has a writing exercise on different aspects of poetry including on metaphor hence why I became confused. But anyways like I said I have it planned.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M64LQWU/?coliid=I2CO2SD1VHNRIM&colid=13X9D2L3WA1B2&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

This one I am sure will help. Then of course, if he is a teacher, I will pick up his book that is more advanced. Thanks to the both of you for trying to answer my question and inquiry which I am not disappointed.

Pelwrath
April 6th, 2018, 10:00 PM
If you aren’t read the poems in this years NaPoWrio thread, there are many incredible and varied styles. Join Poetry Hill and post poetry, we’ll help and point you to your strengths and where to improve.
Trust me, it’s a terrific place for help, support, and direction.

Firemajic
April 6th, 2018, 10:08 PM
Some will disagree with me, and I am ok with that... but... there are some things you just cannot learn in a book... There are things a teacher cannot teach you, about writing poetry... there is MORE than rhyme + metaphor=poem... there is the ability to dig deep, the ability to SEE things different and express that... it is being connected to your inner voice, hearing it, and being brave enough to set it free... like I said, some will disagree... but when you read a poem, and it changes your view of life... when you read a poem, and something inside you feels fed and nourished... you will understand what I mean... hopefully... maybe...

Theglasshouse
April 6th, 2018, 10:09 PM
I read some of them, I voted in the poetry of the month. I read firemajics poems that are not yet finished on the kaleidoscope and had read Tl murphies poems. It was a fun read. But I appreciate the advice. I might need some form of a book, which is why I've been reluctant to participate in a while. Thanks though I admire the work, I need the building blocks to try out some of this on my own.

H.Brown
April 6th, 2018, 10:11 PM
TGH I have found that the Pip challenge helped me to improve alongside posting my poems in the open poetry forum, I have recieved many critiques that have improved my poetry writing, going from not being very good or particulaly confident to feeling like I could join in with NaPoWriMo this year. I worked with different members on different poems, trying to follow thier advice while changing it to suit my own voice and images. I'm sure with our poet's help you can also feel better about writing poems to.

Pelwrath
April 6th, 2018, 10:18 PM
GlassHouse;

By all means, get the book. As a former teacher, I’m all for that, but do the other also. Post a poem for me to critique in the Hill.

Theglasshouse
April 6th, 2018, 10:21 PM
Thanks H brown, I will take in mind your advice to participate in the pip challenge.

Ok I will take your offer pelwrath. I have to go now. I will start practicing. I will buy that book mentioned. I'll return later as I have to go.

H.Brown
April 6th, 2018, 10:24 PM
No problem Tgh, I always find that the best way to learn something or improve is to do said thing. So as Pel has already said I would say write something even if you think it is crap and let the poets help you improve, it's such a satisfying feeling to see your poem improve with each edit. :D

Olly Buckle
April 6th, 2018, 10:43 PM
No problem Tgh, I always find that the best way to learn something or improve is to do said thing. So as Pel has already said I would say write something even if you think it is crap and let the poets help you improve, it's such a satisfying feeling to see your poem improve with each edit. :D

This is why students are asked to write essays, you learn the facts, you use the facts, the facts become embedded. A good, sound principle; some don't like doing the work, but there really is no alternative.

H.Brown
April 6th, 2018, 10:49 PM
I agree Olly, I have always learned better by writing/doing. You can read all the books you want about perfecting form, rhythm, structure ect, but until you start doing you never reallly know what your poetry will be like, you find your own voice this way. :)

Darkkin
April 6th, 2018, 11:52 PM
It is the practice in the preach.

Outsider
April 9th, 2018, 06:57 PM
I decided to view it as literal and feel
the words as written, which were very powerful and
relateable...but still, did I miss something?
Or does it matter?

If you only read a poem literally I think you (usually) do miss something. Of course to do otherwise than read it literally you need to work at it and some don't like to do that. I think a good poem makes you want to do it, want to think about the language used, the imagery, the rhythm and any rhyme.

Does it matter? Maybe not to you. Maybe to the poet if he/she/other spent time and energy to provide the layers of meaning (I do and rarely get any feedback on more than the most obvious non-literal meanings). But that's the poet's problem, not yours. If you get joy from the literal meaning of poems then that is great. But I suggest you try to work out deeper meanings and see if that might give you even more joy.

Olly Buckle
April 10th, 2018, 07:42 AM
I must admit, I sometimes wonder if readers and analysts find deeper meanings that the original poet had not realised were there :)

Pelwrath
April 13th, 2018, 01:38 PM
As one who loves to read and with a vivid imagination, I’ve found it a boon and curse to my poetry. I have a tendency to use openly descriptive words so the reader can create there own meaning. This has led me to not use emotion as much as I should.
Now, when I read poetry it helps md create images that means something to mebased on my history and experiences.
I see poets as literary mood creators. We seek to create a mood in the readers mind that they can identify with and relax into, the snippet of our imagination.

sas
April 14th, 2018, 06:29 PM
I must admit, I sometimes wonder if readers and analysts find deeper meanings that the original poet had not realised were there :)

All the time, and time after time. I envision William Carlos Williams laughing at all the deep interpretations of The Red Wheelbarrow. Mediocre poetry is often perfumed by others. Except for my own, of course. Smiles.

Theglasshouse
April 15th, 2018, 03:29 AM
I need time everyone for writing poetry. I haven't ignored the advice. It may be a month later until I fulfill the requests. I pop in here every now and then in this thread.

Olly Buckle
April 15th, 2018, 07:21 AM
All the time, and time after time. I envision William Carlos Williams laughing at all the deep interpretations of The Red Wheelbarrow. Mediocre poetry is often perfumed by others. Except for my own, of course. Smiles.

Why are the chickens white when the wheel barrow is red and nothing blue is worth mentioning? Is this why things depend on it? and what are they exactly? The world depends on external forces for our view of it, if the rain stops the sky turns blue and the wheelbarrow loses its glaze, what would be the extent of that change? Possibly even more important, why are the chickens out in the rain? Is this natural? Are there ducks anywhere? Are they runner ducks?

"Quick, run," said the duck, "Or we might get caught up for eternity in a poem."

I would have made a great literature student :)

sas
April 15th, 2018, 12:26 PM
Ned,

Yep, yep, yep. Which is why I wrote my own Red Wheelbarrow poem to explain his, in last month’s poetry challenge. I figured I could perfume William’s poem, too. Smiles.