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Smith
June 30th, 2014, 10:23 AM
I know it isn't much to go on. Maybe just if you'd keep reading? Does it make sense? Sound / flow well?

It was four in the morning at the time of writing so made me wonder.

---

Is the love I feel for a girl not the same that you feel for a woman? Love doesn’t change. Only who and what. A real shame that the thoughts which could grow to be our future are wasted. They think we’re too young, and know nothing. Just because what you know changes, doesn’t mean what you knew was wrong.

I know that I have loved. That is because to love is to give up your innocence. It is to give away from your heart, and it hurts. When it is unrequited, it leaves you empty. So men with the smallest hearts have spent the greatest love. As it shrinks, so does the likelihood that they will ever open up to love again. A relationship, then, is when two hearts feed from one another, to make an endless recycling of love. I’ve been both the starving and the fed by the end of this.

It is here where I ask that you put aside your former judgments. I figure you have many years on me at the time of writing this, and, well, will hopefully continue to have many years on me! Don’t forget them or your hind-sight, but just this once approach with a real open mind. Relive your childhood if you aren’t already in it. My hope is to stop telling you now, and start showing you how I got to the point of taking pen to paper and why. Words lose their meaning, yet a picture tells a thousand words. The trick’s to make them count.

We’ll see if that trick's up my sleeve.

Pidgeon84
June 30th, 2014, 03:53 PM
My interest is piqued. I would love to have context to go along with this.

escorial
July 1st, 2014, 01:55 AM
feels like the truth and the need to be understood flows through it..it flows,moves in many different directions if you want..short but full man.

Smith
July 1st, 2014, 02:25 AM
My interest is piqued. I would love to have context to go along with this.

Phew, awesome haha. This is the precursor to a story I plan to write, so hopefully everything that follows will be suitable contextually. :)


feels like the truth and the need to be understood flows through it..it flows,moves in many different directions if you want..short but full man.

Thanks once again Escorial. It feels like you've been here every step of the way. All the pieces, poems, short stories I've written on here you've given me good, kind wisdom and support. Appreciate it, and same goes to all the others who have helped me get here so far. ;)

zenor
July 1st, 2014, 07:35 PM
I would definetly love to see the story for this.

Smith
July 2nd, 2014, 05:53 AM
I would definetly love to see the story for this.

Thanks, I hope you like what I share of it in the future. ^_^

Greimour
July 2nd, 2014, 06:33 AM
Aside from a small disagreement with a comment within, I liked the piece.

In fact, my disagreement isn't small... it is the very opposite view.


I know that I have loved. That is because to love is to give up your innocence. It is to give away from your heart, and it hurts.

Love to me is not giving up your innocence. Nor is it to give away from your heart - nor does it hurt.

Innocence comes in many forms and has variable degrees, but one example people believe takes away innocence would be intercourse. There are some who claim that the moment you lose your virginity, you have lost your innocence. Others would claim other moments in time of significance that often occur during puberty. Others would claim it is when you let go of the inner child.. the moment you stop believing in fantasy or make-believe... the moments of losing innocence are plenty. I do not think love however is a factor.

The statement can easily draw people into philosophical discussion.. such as what innocence is and how you lose it. What love is, whether it is pure or tainted. Whether or not unrequited love is true love, by extension and possibly meaning that it is dependent on the fabled existence of 'the one true love' in which case, love would not be unrequited but reciprocated - that love as the true love would be the only love for comparison on what love actually is.

Ramble aside...

In no scenario of any type of love (for it has many forms and variables) - is innocence stolen or given up.
- You can throw out extreme examples that would argue against this statement, but essentially... all that comes to my mind are examples where sick and twisted people claim their 'acts' were due to love. Such scenarios are not love but other forms of state that are mental. Love to me is not a mental thing, no matter what science or biology may claim.

Love, in no scenario that I know of will be painful. Such a state of pain would be an emotion mistaken as love or a state of mind that has taken cause (scenario) and effect (pain) to be because of emotion (love) when in truth, love itself caused no pain at all.

The only pain in love is an ache. That's my belief.
The aching heart wanting to be nearer to the one it seeks. The ache of desire (and desire is not love but a result possibly caused by the emotion) to hold close and dear the one it (the heart) holds special.

But those feelings of ache are not painful, they are cherished. When in love with one you cannot have and faced with the proposition of abandoning the love or living with the ache for eternity - love accepts the eternity - for life without love would be far worse than enduring the ache for all of time.
There is a line in a film I could quote which basically says: "I'd much rather be miserable for the rest of my life and hold on to this love, than abandon this feeling purely because I can not have you."

Slightly paraphrasing, because I don't actually remember the films title to look it up, only the scene.

One could consider that existence without 'love' would be a hollow, meaningless existence; or to deny that love you feel to be a lie... for it is far better to love than not. [obviously this all focuses on opinion and only partly touches the point I am trying to get across]

Love is not to give away from your heart, but to give your heart completely.

***

I have only (in the above examples) loosely explained my opposition to the statement - and included without desire to do so - comments that would hopefully explain that; though there are examples people could to argue against my view - I do have counter arguments for many of those very same comments. Such as: 'Man loves daughter so much he violates her' is bullcrap. Man so infatuated with daughter and filled with lustful desire, he fails to control himself and violates his daughter. That is a mental issue, not an act of love.

Hate using extreme examples.

It is not my intent to impose my views onto you or your work... but that sentence really ruined it for me personally.


I know that I have loved. That is because to love is to give up your innocence. It is to give away from your heart, and it hurts.

I have in the past touched on the subject of being 'too young to love' ... if I were to use my argument here instead of your sentence, it would go something like this:

I know that I have loved. At what age do people think one can love anyway?
Ask them if they loved at the tender age of eleven and with thought they consider it. Yet at eleven it was impossible for me, as I was too young to be in love. Ask them again if they loved anyone at fourteen and 'yes' they say, as they ramble on about their high school sweetheart. Yet for me it was not love, but infatuation of a pubescent state where I am too young to know what love is. Again the question posed, but sixteen as case in point. To this they may answer with a story. An unrequited love and a broken heart. Yet for me the emotion impossible, for to them I am too young.


When it is unrequited, it leaves you empty. So men with the smallest hearts have spent the greatest love. As it shrinks, so does the likelihood that they will ever open up to love again

I see validity in this... though understated.


A relationship, then, is when two hearts feed from one another, to make an endless recycling of love. I’ve been both the starving and the fed by the end of this.

I agree with that completely. Love can leaving you feeling starved. That is why absence can make the heart grow fonder. Equally, love is between two, where the cycle is endless and each feeds off the other. Reciprocated and never-ending.

More on that point - even when the heart is broken and the ties of love have been torn to shreds. The threads that once bound your hearts remain... just in tatters. A small channel of a tunnel remains that your heart ventures down, feeling and re-experience the joys of love whilst also looking at the pains included in the adventure it once shared with another heart. The love does not leave or cease to exist. It is just closed off and mostly ignored. Sometimes locked away behind a wall of rage where pain of it's ending seeps through occasionally bringing forth memories you repeatedly tried to lock away.

So though the relationship may have ended... it is not love that is the pain you feel afterward. It is whatever new feelings have come with the end of that relationship. Betrayal, resentment, horror... whatever...
Think on a love lost a moment... painful as the memories may be.

When thinking of the love itself, the joy of the relationship, the happiness of the time spent in love... does not the joy and happiness rekindle a little? Remind you of the happiness you shared together?

The pain within or at it's end. They are usually things that happened during the time you were in love. Instances, words, actions... not love itself... but the other factors that were involved whilst 'in love' - those other factors aren't love, nor are they caused by love... jealousy maybe... not caused by love but instead another factor that was present with love.
Perhaps it was his/her words that caused the pain...
Your/His/Her hate...
Your/his/her resentment...
...
The amount of things that cause the pain you feel are many and the list can be short or long... but to me - the love is not the cause of the pain. Love itself is always beautiful, pure, untainted and joyful. Other emotions or psychological states that are mistaken as love, or else believed to be love or believed to be caused by love... Not necessarily true - or by my opinion. Not true at all. As said, Jealousy is not caused by love, simply another factor that has risen within you whilst you are in love. Other factors cause pain. Not love. Blaming love is just the easy explanation.

For me - [so my opinion] - Love can never be bad, painful or otherwise contain anything that may be considered negative.

That is why your one ('comment'?) in this post stating the opposite; is why I can't agree with the piece and what ruined it for me.

The work itself is good though. Disregarding my opposing view of a single sentence... I liked the whole piece.

I will definitely try to make a conscious effort in future to visit your pieces.


Regards,


~Kev.

Smith
July 2nd, 2014, 09:45 AM
Aside from a small disagreement with a comment within, I liked the piece.

In fact, my disagreement isn't small... it is the very opposite view.



Love to me is not giving up your innocence. Nor is it to give away from your heart - nor does it hurt.

Innocence comes in many forms and has variable degrees, but one example people believe takes away innocence would be intercourse. There are some who claim that the moment you lose your virginity, you have lost your innocence. Others would claim other moments in time of significance that often occur during puberty. Others would claim it is when you let go of the inner child.. the moment you stop believing in fantasy or make-believe... the moments of losing innocence are plenty. I do not think love however is a factor.

The statement can easily draw people into philosophical discussion.. such as what innocence is and how you lose it. What love is, whether it is pure or tainted. Whether or not unrequited love is true love, by extension and possibly meaning that it is dependent on the fabled existence of 'the one true love' in which case, love would not be unrequited but reciprocated - that love as the true love would be the only love for comparison on what love actually is.



*quote shortened only for easier reading :)*

Wow! Where do I begin haha? :D

I suppose for starters, I am surprised, excited, relieved, and happy that I invoked such a response. Admittedly, love is in itself a strong emotion, so I suppose it only makes sense that it deserves passionate discussion. At the end of the day the kind of reaction I am hoping the introduction will have, is, "Why does the narrator think this way? Let's read a little more and find out."

This whole talk sort of ties into another line in the piece I think, "Just because what you know changes, doesn't mean what you knew was wrong." Our ideas on love change as we progress. Kind of like what you mentioned with middle-school, high-school, and adult aged relationships. It's a learning process in some ways. The whole of it is based on our experience. I don't want to spoil the story, but what I will say is it is all from my life, and the main character is more or less me. Unfortunately you only had so much to go on here, but I hope that the story would give you the context for... maybe not justifying why he thinks that way, but explaining why it has caused him to think that way.

Again, I wish I could discuss it more, and by being less vague. I do fully respect your opinion, and perhaps think you are right. There's a line from a song that your movie quote reminded me of, which goes, "I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all." Not a crazy fan of the band, but still good regardless. And to add a last bit, I think our eyes are set on the same goal. To find a love that will work. It could be only that how we think love itself works, and maybe what should be defined as love, differs.

P.S. : Going back a little, I see there is more that I can say not pertaining directly to the story.

Thinking back on memories is always a mixed bag. It starts with the good times, and you feel that same warmth inside you except not as bright, not as hot. So I agree that "the joy and happiness rekindles a little bit". Then it progresses to the end, which normally isn't mutual. And even when it is, there's still a sense of longing.

As I believe I mentioned prior, it does seem that what differs is really only how you and I depict 'love working'. A brief example would be you mentioned giving your whole heart, and I see it as taking a part of it. Or in how in my opinion it is losing innocence (for reasons I haven't explained, which perhaps could offer much needed context), and to you true love - not lust, desire - would never take your innocence.

Still, it's pretty cool we can have an open minded chat about this. Love is life, and to live life is to learn. Look forward to a reply, and I hope you enjoy my future work!

- Kyle

Greimour
July 2nd, 2014, 10:03 AM
Yeah, haha you did get a big response... guess the subject hit close to home.

Glad it came across positively though!
Looking back, that stupidly long and highly opinionated post could have potentially come across in a way I did not intend.
At the time, I think I mostly just wanted you to know the sentence was a super detraction for me and completely know/understand why.

Anyway... hmm...

Didn't really make me feel 'why does he think this way' ... came across more opinionated than that. That wouldn't however make me stop reading. Once I got further in, I would probably eventually think back to that section and go; 'Oh, that's why he thought that.'

To that end, it would achieve the same result, no? Just backwards.
Instead of 'why does he think this way? lets continue find out' - for me it would be:
'well i disagree but oh well' and later 'oh, I see. That's why he thought that way.'

The sentence I mentioned - the one single sentence - pulled me out of the story. Depending on how it was written from that point on, it might take a long time before I get back into it. Perhaps even keep me distanced throughout the story and always view the work objectively - rather than live the story - which essentially is why I read (or what I look for when I read)


As things currently stand... I would definitely continue. I just can't be sure at this point for how long
. 'We'll see if that tricks up my sleeve' was the point where I decided:
'OK, for now, I would continue.'
It was like - starters are over, time to eat the main course.


You have done the hard part, which is grabbed my attention [attention of the reader]. The beginning (or else grabbing the reader) is essentially the most important part. Now all you have to do is keep the reader. So for me, it entirely depends on what comes next. You have piqued my interest just enough to stay - now it's just whether or not you can keep me here.


Regards,


~Kev.


-Edit-

I don't have time right now, but I will try to remember to take a look at the other piece. The way they tie in together might change my mind a little (or a lot) and if it does, I expect it would only be for the better. So, I will get around to your other pieces and then look forward to future pieces. Love is a tough subject to cover. I am interested in how you go about it and your evolution in how you write about it. ^_^

--- Also had to edit because of various reasons... such as an analogy I was writing then changed my mind half way through - but I didn't delete the partial analogy I had written... >.< haha

KrystalStarr
July 3rd, 2014, 05:17 PM
Here's my opinion.

I don't know if you're going to write this as a short story or as a full-length novel, but when you do finish the story, if you are seeking publication, it's a good idea to show this to potential agents you're submitting to as a 'hook'. This is a good place to start if you want to get agents interested in this particular story. Good job. I'm looking forward to reading this myself. I think you're talented, and I felt the conflict and sentiment of your main character. I've showed my work to 3 beta readers before, and one of them said they hated my main character. The other one said she loved him, but the one that said she hated him, that really stung and left me wondering why. I think you know how to write a main character your readers can really feel for, and that's a sign of a talented writer. :)

Smith
July 4th, 2014, 06:00 AM
Here's my opinion.

I don't know if you're going to write this as a short story or as a full-length novel, but when you do finish the story, if you are seeking publication, it's a good idea to show this to potential agents you're submitting to as a 'hook'. This is a good place to start if you want to get agents interested in this particular story. Good job. I'm looking forward to reading this myself. I think you're talented, and I felt the conflict and sentiment of your main character. I've showed my work to 3 beta readers before, and one of them said they hated my main character. The other one said she loved him, but the one that said she hated him, that really stung and left me wondering why. I think you know how to write a main character your readers can really feel for, and that's a sign of a talented writer. :)

Hi, and thank-you for your opinion. Creating a character is something I always struggled with, but once I've started to use inspiration from my own real life, it made things a little bit easier. Hope you will enjoy the upcoming novel! Or at least, what little I have done of it.

DannyMullen
July 7th, 2014, 01:06 AM
Your emotion really came through in this, and the writing is strong as well. Don't modify anything based on somebody else's ideas and opinions of love; you cutting yourself open the best you can is what keeps our eyes moving down the page/screen.

DannyMullen
July 7th, 2014, 01:16 AM
Steve Albini, producer of Nirvana's In Utero, once said that he likes to be, artistically, as hands off with a band as possible, in order to "let their insanity come out." I try to keep this in mind while writing, especially when it comes to subjective pieces like this.

Greimour
July 7th, 2014, 01:30 AM
Your emotion really came through in this, and the writing is strong as well. Don't modify anything based on somebody else's ideas and opinions of love;
Felt like a stab at me, but doesn't matter if it was. I am happy with the current level of understanding I share with Smith. We are quite agreeable and get along well I think; so if it was due to my response, I would like to point out that your opinion only holds the same amount of weight as mine.

Though my view may oppose his on love and what it involves, that doesn't negate the value of my comment. At the end of the day, writers wishing to be published have to consider the views of others. This is due to things like Target Audience and Marketability.

Besides that, he asked for opinions upon it's posting, so that is exactly what each of us has done. He didn't state that he wanted only favourable opinions to be shared.
If nothing else, it is also an interesting topic to discuss.

Would also like to state that my view on that comment is the same, 100%.
Don't change anything just because someone thinks you should. My spin on that is, don't ignore someone just because you disagree either.
Take what they said and then do what you want with it. Just make sure you acknowledge it and then proceed in the way you decide is best.
At the end of the day, it's your work and it's all on you.


Steve Albini, producer of Nirvana's In Utero, once said that he likes to be, artistically, as hands off with a band as possible, in order to "let their insanity come out." I try to keep this in mind while writing, especially when it comes to subjective pieces like this.

That would equate to saying: "Sure, write it.. go wild." to just about every random thought someone comes up with in regard to writing stories.

Though I have no desire to argue against such sentiments (my ideal view), you still have to consider marketability, target audience and other factors of the professional business that is writing and selling stories. Once you have an author like Stephen King who can essentially become a cash cow that can sell nonsense if he wanted, then by all means, do what you want... but until then, you have to play the game the same way as all the other aspiring authors.

DannyMullen
July 7th, 2014, 03:32 AM
Yeah, I wasn't really trying to take a stab at anyone. And to be honest, I skimmed everything after the original post. You make good points, though. Writing, especially compared to other forms of media, can't be an exercise in total hedonism these days.

Smith
July 7th, 2014, 07:25 PM
Stephen King also said (para-phrasing), "Look for trends. The opinion of one person doesn't really matter. Mine is equal to theirs. But if three, four, or five people start telling me the same thing, maybe there is some truth to it."

Thanks for your kind words Danny, and I will be sure to keep that piece of advice in mind. Sometimes during my writing it doesn't feel like me. Always have to remind myself that, even if it may not be popular, I have to keep my own voice. Marketability and target audience are of course realistic considerations, but for me at the end of the day it comes down to, "Am I satisfied?"

DannyMullen
July 7th, 2014, 07:40 PM
That's the same way I feel. You're the one spending all those lonely hours with your nose in a computer screen. If you're not satisfied and having fun, then whats the point of being a writer?

Greimour
July 7th, 2014, 07:42 PM
Marketability and target audience are of course realistic considerations, but for me at the end of the day it comes down to, "Am I satisfied?"

Ha, I said quite literally the same thing in another post earlier today. [See Here] (http://www.writingforums.com/threads/148572-Death-Throes-Chapter-2?p=1751390&viewfull=1#post1751390)

Direct Quote:
At the end of the day, we each craft our own art - as art, the opinions of those viewing it will not always be the same and will not always match the creators. As the creator of said art, you have to be the one satisfied with its moulding.

I have always operated under the premise that I am writing for myself. If I decide to share what I wrote for me to enjoy, then that is when the story becomes 'ours' instead of 'mine' ... but until I share it, that story is mine and was written for me.

DannyMullen
July 7th, 2014, 07:45 PM
Yeah. And getting back to the marketability thing, I guess it helps that I'm not satisfied unless I think somebody else will enjoy my writing. But if I didn't feel that way, I'd probably still write whatever I wanted.

Greimour
July 7th, 2014, 08:38 PM
Heh, I am quite happy to write purely for myself, which comes back to your earlier comment:

You're the one spending all those lonely hours with your nose in a computer screen. If you're not satisfied and having fun, then whats the point of being a writer?

For that reason I can write purely for me. Purely for the joy of writing... but then I also agree with that last comment:

I'm not satisfied unless I think somebody else will enjoy my writing

I believe there is a simple truth where "if you like it, in this world there will be at least one other person who also likes it" ... that one person alone is reason enough for me to share what I write.

The more people that like what I write, the happier I become. That would be the same for any writer I would imagine.

All in all, seems we are not that disagreeable after all ^_^

The Bruce
July 16th, 2014, 12:54 AM
Very good. I really like your writing style; short, simple sentences with a rhythm. The second paragraph in particular was poetic where it could have felt schlocky, given the subject matter.

The third paragraph was extremely self-conscious: that did a great job of evoking adolescence, but it also prepared me for an extremely introspective narrative. If that's what you're intending, then great. I would consider whether the final three sentences of the piece are really necessary: the start of the third paragraph is apologetic with respect to the subject's lack of experience in life, which builds a picture - but those last three sentences feel more self-conscious about the subject's abilities as a narrator, and/or your abilities as a writer. I'm not sure how much benefit there is to the reader in that.

I do like the third paragraph, but - thinking out loud - an alternative approach would be for the narrator to be completely unapologetic, and rather than inviting the reader to "relive your childhood", to rail against them for losing, or for never having possessed, the rawness of emotion that the narrator has. This brashness and overconfidence might be completely out-of-keeping with the narrator's character, in which case it's obviously a terrible idea, but if not then it would allow you to be more bombastic and upbeat in the story-telling, which I think could fit with your writing style.

Smith
July 16th, 2014, 07:52 AM
Very good. I really like your writing style; short, simple sentences with a rhythm. The second paragraph in particular was poetic where it could have felt schlocky, given the subject matter.

The third paragraph was extremely self-conscious: that did a great job of evoking adolescence, but it also prepared me for an extremely introspective narrative. If that's what you're intending, then great. I would consider whether the final three sentences of the piece are really necessary: the start of the third paragraph is apologetic with respect to the subject's lack of experience in life, which builds a picture - but those last three sentences feel more self-conscious about the subject's abilities as a narrator, and/or your abilities as a writer. I'm not sure how much benefit there is to the reader in that.

I do like the third paragraph, but - thinking out loud - an alternative approach would be for the narrator to be completely unapologetic, and rather than inviting the reader to "relive your childhood", to rail against them for losing, or for never having possessed, the rawness of emotion that the narrator has. This brashness and overconfidence might be completely out-of-keeping with the narrator's character, in which case it's obviously a terrible idea, but if not then it would allow you to be more bombastic and upbeat in the story-telling, which I think could fit with your writing style.

Thanks, glad you like my style. I still consider myself too much of a rookie to point out my own style. I know it is there. It just isn't completely consciously deliberate yet.

I'm glad I managed to avoid sounding cheap in the second paragraph. That's a big concern of mine when writing this. I tell myself over and over to just be honest, straightforward, and to the point as often as necessary. This novel is representative of a part of my real life, quite nearly to the letter. So that's very important to me, thank-you! And yep, by the sound of it the third paragraph is working as intended. I'm only 16, so an adolescent voice I guess is expected. Agreed about the last three sentences, which have been moved elsewhere in the edited version of this, which I will post hopefully in the next few days.

Interesting secondary approach to this, but as you mentioned, I do not believe it would be appropriate for the nature of the narrator, who is also based off me. I can be unapologetic about some things. Here, though, it felt right to take a more neutral, inviting approach. As far as just this precursor is concerned, I already said my piece, so to speak, in the second paragraph. Still, thanks for the suggestion. Always good to get as many different perspectives on things as possible.

rogerblingham
July 19th, 2014, 08:50 AM
If its a straightforward first draft published without corrections, I have to give you compliment for your ability with words. But if it is not, then you have a long way to go.

What I felt was that there are solid foundation of thoughts which need to be reorganized around new set of words to make it look like the whole thing is flowing according to a theme. As of now it is more dispersed.

Smith
July 19th, 2014, 09:03 AM
If its a straightforward first draft published without corrections, I have to give you compliment for your ability with words. But if it is not, then you have a long way to go.

What I felt was that there are solid foundation of thoughts which need to be reorganized around new set of words to make it look like the whole thing is flowing according to a theme. As of now it is more dispersed.

Hey there, thanks for the reply.

This was basically a first draft. I didn't spend too much time on it, wrote it at 4:00 in the morning. I think it flows if I take out the last bit of the third paragraph. Glad that the thoughts seem solid.