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aj47
January 11th, 2013, 03:13 AM
I think that our readers are what legitimizes us as poets and that we owe them a little something.

If, for example, I write a stanza that rhymed ababcc, it would behoove me to write one of the following: dedecc, dedeff, ababdd, or ababcc

Something that would logically follow from the expectation I had set up.

Now, if I'm not rhyming at all -- then turning around and rhyming my last two lines might look Seussian.

Again, it makes sense, if you set up an expectation, to follow through on it.

Now, if you deliberately mess with the expectation, that is another matter and another kind of poetry and not what I'm talking abut here.

This is especially important in poetry that's intended to be heard, such as slam or lyrics. Your reader can't go back and reread the line to make sure thy got it--they are listening and if they get confused, might miss something in your next line that you're trying to say.

Note that I'm not advocating rhyming or not-rhyming or whatever. But part of the deal is communication and you can't communicate as well with someone who is confused.

My $.02.

WhitakerRStanton
January 11th, 2013, 03:39 AM
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Kevin
January 11th, 2013, 04:09 AM
So...if you start off with one form, and suddenly break into another, you will lose the audience? Like if you start out with a rock'n'roll, and break off into a slow country/western. Hmmm.

aj47
January 11th, 2013, 04:27 AM
I suppose it really doesn't matter unless one intends to be published by other than oneself.

aj47
January 11th, 2013, 04:28 AM
So...if you start off with one form, and suddenly break into another, you will lose the audience? Like if you start out with a rock'n'roll, and break off into a slow country/western. Hmmm.

No it's more if you *almost* follow a form, the dissonance you create may interfere with the reader/listener's appreciation of a piece.

Kevin
January 11th, 2013, 04:33 AM
I think you have a point. You brought up the live performance. I can imagine bombing in front of a crowd. I would be humiliated if I just read something and no one got it. Not even one person. I imagine that most would just have nothing to say to you afterward, and the few that patted/consoled you might say something like "better luck next time." Uhhhhg....

edit; I just read your reply. I think I get it. The 'almost' would make your piece drab. So form might be as important as idea and precise word choice. Consistency , like not mixing a piece of modern in with an otherwise classic. Rhyme or don't rhyme, but not one at the start and none thereafter.

WhitakerRStanton
January 11th, 2013, 05:13 AM
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aj47
January 11th, 2013, 05:41 AM
What doesn't matter? The point? The poem? The person who wrote the poem? Also, what is the relevancy of publishing?
Depends on one's goals. What do you want to accomplish? If you want to make money writing poetry, then you should use different strategies than if you're scribbling away with no intention of sharing your work with anyone.

One could make a strong case that posting work on the internet is an attempt to garner attention. In which case, what one posts will determine how one is perceived by the online community. If one didn't care what that opinion was, what would be the point of sharing work online?

aj47
January 11th, 2013, 05:47 AM
edit; I just read your reply. I think I get it. The 'almost' would make your piece drab. So form might be as important as idea and precise word choice. Consistency , like not mixing a piece of modern in with an otherwise classic. Rhyme or don't rhyme, but not one at the start and none thereafter.

Yes--whatever the expectation you set up -- to rhyme, to not-rhyme, to have a certain syllable count or whatever -- consistency makes it easier for you to convey your message.

I like to try the Japanese-style forms and they do not rhyme. They are expected to not-rhyme so if I were to put a rhyme in, it would be the same kind of interrupted expectation that having one near-rhyme in an otherwise true-rhyme piece.

So it's not rhyminess I'm supporting -- it's consistency.

WhitakerRStanton
January 11th, 2013, 06:05 AM
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Abbey08
January 11th, 2013, 03:02 PM
Yes--whatever the expectation you set up -- to rhyme, to not-rhyme, to have a certain syllable count or whatever -- consistency makes it easier for you to convey your message.

I like to try the Japanese-style forms and they do not rhyme. They are expected to not-rhyme so if I were to put a rhyme in, it would be the same kind of interrupted expectation that having one near-rhyme in an otherwise true-rhyme piece.

So it's not rhyminess I'm supporting -- it's consistency.

Great conversation going on here. I agree with you Annie. The human mind perceives a pattern, and in that perception comes expectation of the continuity of the pattern in the poem. A writer throwing in a pattern and then abandoning it is one of my biggest nits about reading poetry.


Different strategies? Interesting. Tell me about these different strategies.
If you're writing for yourself, or even to casually post here, you may or may not notice internal inconsistencies in your work. Indeed, you may not care. If you want to be published in the outside world, your piece had better be consistent so it is taken seriously by readers who know and care about such consistency.

Didn't mean to step on the conversation. It addresses something important, and near-and-dear to my heart.

Lorraine

WhitakerRStanton
January 11th, 2013, 03:14 PM
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aj47
January 11th, 2013, 03:41 PM
I'll make one up.

There's a monster in the bottle
I become him every night
I hate myself too much to fight
There's a monster in the bottle
Growing stronger with each swig
I feel him tightening his grip.

That is an inconsistency.

Squalid Glass
January 21st, 2013, 09:44 AM
Depends on one's goals. What do you want to accomplish? If you want to make money writing poetry, then you should


probably forget it. The profession is not exactly a money-making powerhouse.

About your OP, I am more inclined to believe the art is first and foremost about the artist. While it is nice when others can relate to my poetry, and while I value other's opinions in order to improve, in the end my poetry is mine. Perhaps it is a Romantic mindset and a bit archaic, but if you're not writing for yourself then what's the point?

dolphinlee
January 21st, 2013, 11:18 AM
. Perhaps it is a Romantic mindset and a bit archaic, but if you're not writing for yourself then what's the point?

Ignoring those writers who write for others like copywriters, I think first and foremost writers must write for themselves,


Ithink that our readers are what legitimizes us as poets and that we owe them alittle something. Again, it makes sense, if you set up an expectation, tofollow through on it.

This is especially important in poetry that's intended to be heard, such asslam or lyrics. Your reader can't go back and reread the line to make sure theygot it--they are listening and if they get confused, might miss something inyour next line that you're trying to say.

I think we all like, and to some extent need to have our work validated by others

Two of the human needs are consistency and variety. Consistency makes us feel safe and comfortable. Variety gives us excitement. If a writer is not consistent enough in their work then the reader will not feel comfortable when reading it no matter how exciting the piece is. If the work is not stimulating then the reader will not continue no matter how comfortable the piece is.

When I am reading otherís work on the site I am often jarred out of the piece by the unexpected or Ďjust plain wrongí in the work. If I am writing a critique I will continue because my purpose is to try to help the writer to tighten thework. There are some pieces that jar me so much that I give up.

If I write the following for myself and I really like it.

I wandered lonely as a cloud,
Doh wah diddy diddy dum diddy do,
There isnít anyother stair quite like it,
Donít stand, donít stand, donít stand so close to me.

With the first line I am setting up an expectation that the poem is going one way.
With the second line I have disappointed the reader but maybe I am setting up a pattern. The third line is not in the style of the first or second and would have the reader wondering what is going on.

Lines 1 and 2 are from other poems. Lines 3 and 4 are from songs. I might like this poem. I might be making an important point. But if I have jarred my reader out of the poem by not making it consistent enough, or in astroannieís words if I have setup an expectation and not followed through then I cannot expect people to be comfortable reading it and my point will not be made.

Olly Buckle
January 21st, 2013, 12:17 PM
rhyming my last two lines might look Seussian Oh to be such a distinctive writer that your name makes a word, Dickensian is the only other one I can think of instantly.


then I cannot expect people to be comfortable reading it and my point will not be made. A point worth making is often uncomfortable, if the reader gives up as soon as something is outside their comfort zone they will not progress far.

Vitaly Ana
January 21st, 2013, 03:44 PM
Depends on one's goals. What do you want to accomplish? If you want to make money writing poetry, then you should use different strategies than if you're scribbling away with no intention of sharing your work with anyone.

One could make a strong case that posting work on the internet is an attempt to garner attention. In which case, what one posts will determine how one is perceived by the online community. If one didn't care what that opinion was, what would be the point of sharing work online?


I actually agree with just about everyone. Writing means different things to different people and its a process. If a writer is writing for money, they most likely have to follow some serious, set guidelines and meet the needs of their boss(es). If a writer wants to be published, they have a much better chance with a polished piece following proper form. If a writer wants to write for fun or as a gateway to more serious writing, I don't think there is anything wrong with writing for the sake of writing. In that case, don't take yourself or your critics too seriously.

Bloggsworth
January 21st, 2013, 04:36 PM
Orwellian, Shakespearean, Kafkaesque - You're not trying Olly!

Olly Buckle
January 21st, 2013, 05:14 PM
You're not trying Olly!
My missus says I am, very. Sorry about that. I spent most of yesterday in bed with a pain through one eye that went on to about 4am, not at my brightest.

Abbey08
January 21st, 2013, 05:16 PM
My missus says I am, very. Sorry about that. I spent most of yesterday in bed with a pain through one eye that went on to about 4am, not at my brightest.

Not going to derail this, but quickly, hope you're doing better today.

Lorraine

Nee
January 23rd, 2013, 06:45 AM
The majority of fiction readers simply want a good story with believable characters, that fully envelops them in a world where they can lose themselves for a a few hours, and not have to worry about all the stupid crap they have to deal with every day in their normal lives.

And any writer who's compassion is greater than their ego will, at least once and a while, write one of those stories for them--for that is the nobler thing to do.

*this goes for all creative writing...

bajmahal
April 10th, 2013, 07:25 AM
I'm a bit confused by your statement in the OP, "Now, if you deliberately mess with the expectation, that is another matter and another kind of poetry and not what I'm talking abut here."
Other than poems by children or other beginners, how can one tell if the rhyme scheme has been accidentally or deliberately messed with? Also, there are plenty of examples of monetarily successful poems with eccentric rhyme schemes and if you're going to make exceptions for these (without explaining further), I don't see how your premise that one is unlikely to be successful without a conventional (predictable) rhyme scheme works. For example:

Here is the rhyme scheme for the four part poem, "Peter Quince at the Clavier" by Wallace Stevens:
Part I........ Part II........ Part III........ Part IV
A.............. A................ A................ A
B.............. B................ A................. B
C.............. C................................... B
near B....... D................B
D.............. E................ B................. C
C.............. D.................................... D
.................F................. C................. D
E.............. G................. C................ E
F................................................. ..... E
G.............. H................ D................. F
.................I................. D................. F
H.............. J
I............... K................ A................. G
J............... L................ A................. H
.................J................................ .... H
K................................................. .... I
L............... M................................... J
G............... N................................... I
..................O
..................P
..................Q
..................N

..................R
..................S
..................T
..................U
..................V

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
Here is the rhyme scheme for the four part poem, "Preludes" by T.S. Eliot:
Part I........Part II........Part III........Part IV
A..............A..............A................ A
B..............B...............B.................B
C..............C..............C.................C
B..............A..............D.................B
D..............D..............B.................D
D..............................C.................A
E..............E...............E.................E
F..............F................F................. C
E..............D...............F.................F
F..............E...............G.................F
E..............F...............H.................G
G..............................I.................. H
................................I................. .G
G..............................G
................................H................. .I
................................G................. .J
.................................................. ..K

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
Here is the rhyme scheme for the five stanzas of the poem, "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" by Maya Angelou:
stanza 1........stanza 2........stanza 3........stanza 4........stanza 5
A..................A..................A........... .......A..................A
B..................B...................A.......... .......near A...........B
C..................C..................B........... .......B..................C
near B...........B..................near B...........C..................B
D..................D.............................. ............................D
E..................D.............................. ............................B
F...................E............................. .............................D
.................................................. ..............................E

As you can see, these are all pretty eccentric rhyme schemes belonging to wildly successful poems. So what makes these (and the many more that could be named) exceptions to your rule?

fredkellypicks
April 23rd, 2013, 10:42 AM
Reader expect that what ever the thoughts you try to put it should touch directly to heart.

Lustitia
May 3rd, 2013, 05:10 AM
Personally, you should write for yourself. If people just so happen to like it, that's just an added bonus.

Lewdog
May 3rd, 2013, 05:56 AM
I think really the point with the rhyme scheme is the pace and rhythm of the piece. I know if I am reading a poem, and all of a sudden something throws me off, so that I have to pause or go back and read something over again, it extremely devalues the poem.