Thread: The dynamic between a writer and his or her “first reader”

'Smee again

I’m interested in hearing your views about

1) the level of preparedness that a "completed" work of fiction should reach, before it’s seen by any professional reader,

and/or,

2) the specific types of advice that a writer should be seeking from such a reader. Should, for example, a writer ask such a reader to correct punctuation? Or to make suggestions to improve the flow of the story?

Okay, some of you may nitpick my use of the word “completed”, saying that if it’s completed it should be on its way to an agent. So maybe what I mean by “completed” is “a work that has flaws the writer has either missed or is incapable of seeing.”

Thanks.

Finished.

My betas get each chapter as I finish it - and since I edit as I go, the chapters are pretty much the way I think they should stay. And since we exchange work, my betas also send the rest of us their work chapter by chapter. (Whether the writer has finished writing the whole story or not is immaterial in this method). We also look at everything about the work - from grammar to phrasing to flow to characterization to whatever. It works because each of us tend to concentrate on one area (mine's typically grammar and phrasing) while also giving more general comments on the whole.

I couldn't stand to send a whole book to them and have them find a major problem in the first couple of chapters...

My first reader is my husband. When we get in from the separate places where we have done our writing for the day/evening/night we swap notebooks. A nightly ritual for us. If one of us sees the other heading down a perhaps less than productive path, it can be nipped in the bud or explored in a brainstorming session to see if that path can be tweaked to work.

Its a good question. I am finding it hard to get someone to read my stuff. So far my mother has read some, and my Uncle is reading some. But as for the type of feedback you expect then it could range from nitpicking about the grammer, to an overall criticism of the story or characters.

I think there is a general order to go when getting feedback. Grammer, punctation etc should be the last thing anyone reads for. The first thing should be like a test read, to see if someone has picked up the story/plot you intended to put across. If they have then great, then its time to ask about style/flow/tone etc.

I reckon only when the story is complete and needs no further edits of the story to improve clarity or flow etc, then is the time to ask someone to look for grammer and punctation.

Originally Posted by Robdemanc

I think there is a general order to go when getting feedback. Grammer, punctation etc should be the last thing anyone reads for. The first thing should be like a test read, to see if someone has picked up the story/plot you intended to put across. If they have then great, then its time to ask about style/flow/tone etc.

I reckon only when the story is complete and needs no further edits of the story to improve clarity or flow etc, then is the time to ask someone to look for grammer and punctation.

See, I'm just the opposite. I figure the grammar/punctuation should come first, because often those problems make the story unreadable. If one is constantly finding mistakes in that, it interrupts not only the overall reading, but the ability to concentrate on the story itself.

Different strokes

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

My betas get each chapter as I finish it - and since I edit as I go, the chapters are pretty much the way I think they should stay. And since we exchange work, my betas also send the rest of us their work chapter by chapter. (Whether the writer has finished writing the whole story or not is immaterial in this method). We also look at everything about the work - from grammar to phrasing to flow to characterization to whatever. It works because each of us tend to concentrate on one area (mine's typically grammar and phrasing) while also giving more general comments on the whole.

I couldn't stand to send a whole book to them and have them find a major problem in the first couple of chapters...

This sounds organised, but let me ask you this: how does such a system manage stuff like flow and plot holes for example – stuff that needs the entire story before its existence can be seen/uncovered? To my untutored mind, it looks like it can't be done.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

This sounds organised, but let me ask you this: how does such a system manage stuff like flow and plot holes for example – stuff that needs the entire story before its existence can be seen/uncovered? To my untutored mind, it looks like it can't be done.

Sure it can be done. It's just caught earlier in the writing process. Whether the story is completely written or only as far as the upcoming chapter, it doesn't change the flow, or lessen the chance of plot holes - it still gets read one chapter at a time. So if there's something jarring, or off-kilter, or contradicts what happened earlier, it's caught before the whole story has to be rewritten. It works especially well for me, because I base the next chapter on what has already happened in the story (and been 'finalized').

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

See, I'm just the opposite. I figure the grammar/punctuation should come first, because often those problems make the story unreadable. If one is constantly finding mistakes in that, it interrupts not only the overall reading, but the ability to concentrate on the story itself.

Different strokes

Rdm did say “test read”, which some could take to mean that another read would follow. Whatever, whilst I whole-heartedly agree that faults can make a story unreadable, the idea of correcting punctuation and grammar first could mean – not would mean but could mean - that large chunks of text change, and due to the domino effect, this in turn could have an effect on the overall story. What I’m really saying here is that a writer needs to be sufficiently proficient that anything sent out for reading should be publisher-ready, that a writer should be capable of being their own editor.

I’d like to hear argument on this.

I agree that any work sent out for that important 'first read' should be in as pristine a condition as the writer can make it. After all, part of honing our craft is that relentless -- and elusive -- pursuit of perfection. However, all of us have certain grammatical, or stylistic 'blind spots' which are nearly impossible for us to see in ourselves. For instance, I've noticed many posters on these forums (I know the proper word is fora, but I hate that pretentious syllable) confuse the words 'than' and 'then'. At one time I habitually followed the word 'off' with 'of', as in, "I took the coffee cup off of the table". It was something so much a part of my nature based on the way everyone speaks here in the Midwestern US, that I didn't even know it was not proper grammar. It took others reading my work to point it out.

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

Sure it can be done. It's just caught earlier in the writing process. Whether the story is completely written or only as far as the upcoming chapter, it doesn't change the flow, or lessen the chance of plot holes - it still gets read one chapter at a time. So if there's something jarring, or off-kilter, or contradicts what happened earlier, it's caught before the whole story has to be rewritten. It works especially well for me, because I base the next chapter on what has already happened in the story (and been 'finalized').

With respect, that’s nonsense. Given all the other stuff going on in a reader’s life in between reads, they can’t necessarily be expected to remember, when reading Ch 7, of something in that chapter that's inconsistent with something in Ch 2. Inconsistencies need the entire story in the reader’s mind at the one time if they are to be uncovered. A reader with an eidetic memory might cope with time gaps n their reading and still be able to pick the inconsistencies, but most of us aren’t blessed in that way.

Originally Posted by Terry D

At one time I habitually followed the word 'off' with 'of', as in, "I took the coffee cup off of the table". It was something so much a part of my nature based on the way everyone speaks here in the Midwestern US, that I didn't even know it was not proper grammar. It took others reading my work to point it out.

Haha. How about 'in back of' for 'behind'?

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

With respect, that’s nonsense. Given all the other stuff going on in a reader’s life in between reads, they can’t necessarily be expected to remember, when reading Ch 7, of something in that chapter that's inconsistent with something in Ch 2. Inconsistencies need the entire story in the reader’s mind at the one time if they are to be uncovered. A reader with an eidetic memory might cope with time gaps n their reading and still be able to pick the inconsistencies, but most of us aren’t blessed in that way.

With respect, it's not nonsense. It's worked very well for our group (which includes one writer who will have her third commercially published novel out next month). It won't work for everyone, but it works for us. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. And quite frankly, I wonder how many readers have time to read an entire book in one sitting and make comments - which is the only way you seem to think it can work.

Okay.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Rdm did say “test read”, which some could take to mean that another read would follow. Whatever, whilst I whole-heartedly agree that faults can make a story unreadable, the idea of correcting punctuation and grammar first could mean – not would mean but could mean - that large chunks of text change, and due to the domino effect, this in turn could have an effect on the overall story. What I’m really saying here is that a writer needs to be sufficiently proficient that anything sent out for reading should be publisher-ready, that a writer should be capable of being their own editor.

I’d like to hear argument on this.

I think writers should be good enough at writing to take care of their own grammer and punctuation. However, on the off chance that a few mistakes have slipped through I would imagine they would not be severe enough to affect the flow or the story itself. My logic in my prior post was: take care of the major issues first (story, plot, chars, flow etc), then the minor (perhaps cosmetic) issues like punctuation and grammer. I would not like to spend a lot of time with a reader going over the grammer and punctuation only to turn around afterwards and say "btw the story is boring and the characters unbelievable".