Thread: Point of View

Hi everyone,

I'm writing a fantasy novel in a limited third-person voice, I have written almost 300 pages (typed) and estimate that I am roughly half way done.

I am now at a point in the story where something happens to the female protagonist but I don't want the audience to know all of the details right away and am wondering if it would be too weird to change the point of view to the male protagonist. I'm not sure how long the would be for, at the minimum a few paragraphs and at most the one chapter (most of the chapters are around 10 pages). The POV is limited to the female protagonist and this would probably be the only time in the novel that it changes to another character. I have another idea as to how I could get around the audience knowing the details, simply skip the scene (as this starts a new chapter) and have the chapter begin when she returns to the others. The only problem is, there might be a lot of interaction within the situation with the other characters, I haven't fully formed the idea yet. I mostly work off the top of my head as I go. I really think it would work best if I changed to his perspective but it feels weird, like I shouldn't be doing it.

If this helps, it would basically consist of the male character realizing she is missing and looking for her, figuring out where she is gone and then trying (but failing) to get her back. When she returns he may end up fighting some creatures but that's what I haven't decided on yet. During the fight the POV might switch back, though in that case I'm thinking it would be best to stick it out until the end of the chapter.

Is doing this as weird as I think it sounds?

It is perfectly permissible for a third person limited story to shift POV, however, if you are halfway through and have not done it yet, you should not start now. You could go back and see how many scenes can be told from the POV of your male protagonist and rewrite them that way. Then when you come back to where you are now, the reader will accept one more POV shift.

I'm concerned about withholding information from your readers. It's inherently dishonest, and readers often react badly to it. You can't have your character say, "Oh, by the way, back in Chapter 28 XYZ happened to me." Your readers should get the information at the same time as your characters. Could this thing happen to your character that she does not know about right away but could later reconstruct? For instance could it happen to her while she was asleep?

I assume you want to withhold the information for dramatic effect. You might be able to create similar dramatic tension by having the POV character know something that the other characters do not know. The POV character and the readers share a secret they are keeping from the other characters for a little while.

By the way, writers don't think in terms of number of pages. We count our number of words. Figure on your first novel maxing out at 100,000 words. See if you have a word counter under the Tools function in MS Word or Open Office.

Good luck. C.M.

Ok I'll definitely go back and check the previous chapters to see what I can do about changing the POV in some of them.

Also I agree, withholding info from readers for an extended amount of time is a kill for the reader. It would likely get cleared up in the next chapter where the POV would change back to the female protagonist and she would explain to the male protagonist and possibly some supporting characters what happened. If I'm being too vague let me know and I'll fix that, knowing me I'll just be typing for a while.

You're right the whole idea is dramatic effect, I do also like the idea of having the POV character and readers knowing something the other characters do now. If I don't use that know, I might try to use it later on.

I think I read that before as well but I always forget about it and go with page numbers, that being said I am at about 64,300 words. Is it likely to be too long if I'm over 100,000 words at the end? Too draggy in some parts maybe?

Before you commit to going back and changing your story, have you had anyone read what you have written so far?

The 100K word rule is because publishers are reluctant to invest too much paper and ink in an untried writer. Also, readers are reluctant to commit to a 400k word tome if they do not already know the author and trust that they will enjoy the read.

Originally Posted by larien

I think I read that before as well but I always forget about it and go with page numbers, that being said I am at about 64,300 words. Is it likely to be too long if I'm over 100,000 words at the end? Too draggy in some parts maybe?

That totally depends. Do you have over 100,000 words of story? Or are you just trying to hit some arbitrary goal, and are resorting to using filler to do so?

Consider my own example. My current project is well on its way to being about 200,000 words when all is said and done. Chapters are about 5,500 words apiece. And yet, the last ten chapters or so rush forward with a pace that baffles even me, the author. Why? It's because a darn lot of stuff happens in them, and every single event drives the plot forward.

If you can get in and out of your story in 75,000 words, more power to you. Personally, I have an appreciation for short, tight plots, and the encyclopedic fantasy novels of today totally rub me the wrong way. On the other hand, if a story maintains a good pace throughout, more words are better, because the reader won't want to stop.

It's no good asking if some parts of your story will drag on if you have 100,000 words. The entire story could drag on, or none of it could. It all depends on your plot and writing style.

I would agree with what was previously said about changing POV half way through a story just to hide something. Don't do it unless you are committed to telling most if not all of the remaining story from the other character's POV. And only then if it makes sense from the stand point of the story. If you haven't invested time in making the reader care about the new POV character and what it thinks and feels it could get awkward for the reader and cause problems.

My current novel is 3rd person limited all the way through. I thought about changing at points to other characters and their POV but it felt wrong and caused issues with what the reader would know in each successive chapter about the main character. That being said, the epilogue is being written in 3rd person omniscient POV because it works better and I think ties up some loose ends about what the novel's secondary character is thinking at times. Since the epilogue is a set aside and a short story in and of itself I believe that to be ok after I have told the main story for the POV of just the main character. But if you do chose to switch POVs in your instance take care that you don't lead the reader astray. They should still know what is happening to the old POV character even though maybe not all the intimacy they would if they were still the POV character.

If you haven't switched point of views in the first 300 pages, I'd argue that it's too late to do so now. It will feel abrupt, not well thought out.

You could jump forward in time, to a scene that happens after the incident, and turn the event into a bit of a mystery by simply not explaining what happened. Let the details of it slowly trickle in later, and let the reader put it together.

Zootalaws no i haven't yet, I hate being judged and having to correct things and it's a really bad mentality for a writer. I love my book as it is, obviously I'm ok changing some things if I'm open to playing with POV at this point. I know I'll have to get someone to read it eventually, I think my big problem is that I don't really know who the target audience is. I'm just writing it cause I like the idea I came up with and I love writing. I'm thinking maybe mid to older teens, I don't know that anyone older than that would enjoy it. I don't really know anyone in that age group at this point, I suppose I could post some of it on here and see what people on here think. I'm sure there are a lot of things everyone will be critiquing. Also there are so many little details I don't think I like right now. I'm the sort of person that likes to write it out then go back and change things to make them work after I'm done draft one. That's probably somewhat backward but I just don't do things in order.

Thanks CM for clearing up the reason for the 100K word limit, I can totally understand it looking at it that way and will definitely keep it in mind.

Thank you everyone else for your input as well, you've given me very drastic standpoints on how to do things.

Originally Posted by larien

I'm just writing it cause I like the idea I came up with and I love writing.

No offense, but that sounds strange to me. Writing is storytelling, after all, and what is the storyteller without his audience? I don't write because I enjoy writing, I write because I have stories to tell, and I have a hard time imagining writing just for the sake of writing. Are you saying you don't care for your story to be aknowledged by anyone but yourself?

I'm the sort of person that likes to write it out then go back and change things to make them work after I'm done draft one. That's probably somewhat backward but I just don't do things in order.

Actually, that's pretty much what you're supposed to do.

See, the first draft is supposed to stink. Trying to get it all right the first time is a good way to not get anywhere. People often have their priorities wrong: Your first objective isn't to write a good manuscript but to write a finished manuscript. You can fix all the bad stuff afterwards, the important thing is that you don't stop until you reach the end because otherwise, you haven't accomplished anything. If you're already doing it that way, it probably just means you have good instincts for this.

Originally Posted by Anders Ämting

No offense, but that sounds strange to me. Writing is storytelling, after all, and what is the storyteller without his audience? I don't write because I enjoy writing, I write because I have stories to tell, and I have a hard time imagining writing just for the sake of writing. Are you saying you don't care for your story to be aknowledged by anyone but yourself?



Actually, that's pretty much what you're supposed to do.

See, the first draft is supposed to stink. Trying to get it all right the first time is a good way to not get anywhere. People often have their priorities wrong: Your first objective isn't to write a good manuscript but to write a finished manuscript. You can fix all the bad stuff afterwards, the important thing is that you don't stop until you reach the end because otherwise, you haven't accomplished anything. If you're already doing it that way, it probably just means you have good instincts for this.

I'm glad you think I have good instincts for writing, even though you seem to think a person can't possibly write just because they enjoy writing. I've written a script, I'm half way done this novel, I have another on the go and I have two other script ideas. The thing is, no one has ever read any of them. Yes I do write just because I enjoy it and if it turns out other people like my work then fantastic, but I am not driven by whether people approve of what I write or not. If I were to live my life that way, heck if anyone were to, they would cease to exist as the person they were born to be. If I were to write hoping for approval I probably wouldn't write any more. I know getting feedback and critiques is all part of the process and that is fine, I'll take that but in the end I'm don't get my hopes up by thinking that what I write will get published. That may be short-sighted of me and even harder for you to understand but I just like to put pen to paper and write. Not sure how many people still write stories out by hand first but that is a huge reason why I enjoy is so much. I do things differently from most people, those people tend to not understand me. I am not making a career out of writing, that would kill everything writing is to me, it is just a hobby and hobbies are meant to be enjoyed. Personally I think it's weird if you don't write out of enjoyment, if you don't enjoy what you're doing why the heck would you be doing it?

I would prefer leaving out the chapter instead of shifting POV half way through. Ask yourself if the information is really necessary at that point in the story. Can it wait? If not, then it is much better for the reader, and character to know that information. Ask yourself why you want the information left out.

Originally Posted by larien

I am now at a point in the story where something happens to the female protagonist but I don't want the audience to know all of the details right away

Just curious what sort of details, and why (other than the vague 'dramatic effect')?

Originally Posted by larien

Personally I think it's weird if you don't write out of enjoyment, if you don't enjoy what you're doing why the heck would you be doing it?

For me, storytelling comes first and recognition second. I have a story I want to tell and I'll be thrilled when it's told (that is, when my novel is finished), but I would love for other people to appreciate it as well. If you're the only one who likes your work, what have you accomplished? Furthermore, how can you be pleased with your work unless it's something others are pleased with, too? What are you measuring it against? In my mind, until other people have evaluated and approved of my work, I might as well be typing random gibberish and calling it a story. I said recognition comes second, but its the recognition that validates the storytelling.

For me, writing ISN'T fun, but it's not fun in the same way lifting weights or working at my job isn't fun. I'll put up with all three because the reward far outweighs the cost. Writing is a pain. However, reading what I've written is wonderful. It's amazing to see how much I've put onto paper and where my story's gone. Also, hearing people say, "I love your work; keep writing and keep updating it! I want to read more!" is probably the best reward you can hope for.

Yes, storytelling comes first. However, the true worth of storytelling lies in the audience.

Why not just skip the scene all together and then let it come out in the retelling to the male character? If you are only trying to delay it being given to the reader before the other character knows, tell both at the same time. Very legitimate way to do it.