Thread: Referencing real-world media in fiction? Legal?

Let's say at the end of my story there's some oldies rock playing softly on the radio as the hero looks out over the cityscape. I want to put in some of the lyrics, but will I get sued if I do? I'm thinking of "Wanted Dead or Alive" by Bon Jovi. It ties in nicely.

What about referencing movies? As a specific quote: "You ever seen the Bourne Trilogy? That's what we're up against."

Thanks!

"You ever seen the Bourne Trilogy? That's what we're up against."

You should not have a problem referring to a movie title like this.

With song lyrics I think you are on shakier ground. If you just say that "the radio was playing Jon Bon Jovi's "Wanted Dead or Alive." you should be OK. That is just like a movie title. And depending on your audience many readers may already know the words so you do not need to repeat them.

I agree with above. If it's a passing mention, it should be fine. Duplicating lyrics typically requires permission, however.

Originally Posted by Eicca

What about referencing movies? As a specific quote: "You ever seen the Bourne Trilogy? That's what we're up against."

When I see something like that in a book or movie I usually feel as though the writer wants to put an image into the reader's/viewer's mind and doesn't know how to do it themselves. Worse, when I see something like that in a book or movie that I'm not enjoying, I think 'damn, I wish I was watching that movie instead of doing this'.

Plus I've never seen those particular movies so I have no idea what that dialogue is supposed to mean. I'm guessing that much of the world's population is going to have the same problem.

Ok. Answered all my questions. Thanks!

Originally Posted by movieman

When I see something like that in a book or movie I usually feel as though the writer wants to put an image into the reader's/viewer's mind and doesn't know how to do it themselves. Worse, when I see something like that in a book or movie that I'm not enjoying, I think 'damn, I wish I was watching that movie instead of doing this'.

Plus I've never seen those particular movies so I have no idea what that dialogue is supposed to mean. I'm guessing that much of the world's population is going to have the same problem.

Um, just because you've never watched any of the Bourne films, doesn't mean much of the world's population also havent. I have and the association makes sense to me. So I'm curious. Are you saying the Bourne association shouldnt be included on the off chance a few people might not get it?

Originally Posted by Candra H

Are you saying the Bourne association shouldnt be included on the off chance a few people might not get it?

I'm saying that having characters in the story making decisions based on movies that the reader may or may not have seen is a bad idea. And yes, I strongly suspect you'll find that the majority of people on this planet have not seen those movies, though I've no idea of the intersection between the people who've seen those movies and the people who'd buy this book.

How am I supposed to understand what characters are saying to each other if they communicate through references to movies I've never seen? It just makes no sense to me when you could write something in the actual story that portrays whatever those characters want to communicate to each other.

But if you want to reduce the number of people who might want to read your book (and, in the process, date it by references to current pop culture), go ahead.

I think movie references are fine. a rather large portion of conversations I encounter or have myself with other people involve references to movies. They're a part of our everyday lives, and if you can't reflect that aspect of reality in dialogue that's just one more limitation that you're putting on writing. My personal opinion is that everything should be game. I honestly don't have a problem with music quotes written into a story. I think it should be treated exactly the same way as quoting another work in a research paper. As long as you supply the source it should be fine, otherwise it's just flat out plagiarism. I don't recall paying Albert Bandura dues on the last research paper I wrote and I see no reason to have to pay Bon Jovi royalties. Once it's out there it's public media and should belong to everyone. I know the law might disagree with me here, but it's the way I look at it.

If you look at some of the great works of all time they're saturated in references to works by other writers, philosophers exc. Why should music and entertainment be any different?

I think any movie references or any pop-culture references are fine if there is some reason to think that the majority of your readers will get them. Casablanca, Star Wars, The Wizard of Oz -- etc. Things that are iconic. Otherwise, I don't know why you'd really want to date your work or mention something that won't be relevant in a few years. Even something like the Bourne Trilogy is something that while recognizable to many people today, it has no real significance. There's nothing about it that would lead me to believe anyone will care about it in even a few years time.

Originally Posted by Dewgee

I think it should be treated exactly the same way as quoting another work in a research paper. As long as you supply the source it should be fine, otherwise it's just flat out plagiarism. I don't recall paying Albert Bandura dues on the last research paper I wrote and I see no reason to have to pay Bon Jovi royalties. Once it's out there it's public media and should belong to everyone. I know the law might disagree with me here, but it's the way I look at it.

If you look at some of the great works of all time they're saturated in references to works by other writers, philosophers exc. Why should music and entertainment be any different?

There's something in copyright law called Fair Use. Anyone considering reprinting song lyrics should look it up. It might be OK to quote a small bit of something, but anything more than that might be a copyright infringement. There are a lot of gray areas, so you do it at your own risk.

U.S. Copyright Office - Fair Use

Read some of Stephen King's early stuff, which is loaded with pop culture references, to see if you like it. When the stand was re-released, he changed the time of the novel form 1980 to 1990 and then changed some of the pop culture references.

I would hope that, on a writing site, everyone knows that the Bourne trilogy were novels printed 20 or so years before the movies, right? right?

Heh. Well, I never heard of them.

Originally Posted by movieman

I'm saying that having characters in the story making decisions based on movies that the reader may or may not have seen is a bad idea. And yes, I strongly suspect you'll find that the majority of people on this planet have not seen those movies, though I've no idea of the intersection between the people who've seen those movies and the people who'd buy this book.

How am I supposed to understand what characters are saying to each other if they communicate through references to movies I've never seen? It just makes no sense to me when you could write something in the actual story that portrays whatever those characters want to communicate to each other.

But if you want to reduce the number of people who might want to read your book (and, in the process, date it by references to current pop culture), go ahead.

Well sure, you might not have seen the films but you're not everyone. And fair enough, if you want to take a negative stance and tell people what they shouldnt be doing because some readers might not get the reference and it's a bad idea, go ahead.

Originally Posted by alanmt

Read some of Stephen King's early stuff, which is loaded witgh pop culture references, to see if you like it. When the stand was re-released, he changed the time of the novel form 1980 to 1990 and then changed some of the pop culture references.

I would hope that, on a writing site, everyone knows that the Bourne trilogy were novels printed 20 or so years before the movies, right? right?

Oops. I knew that but forgot it in all the excitement.

I like references and associations to things outside stories. It gives me an idea of the world outside the book and sometimes also the author's worldview/mindset. I don't really mind whether the references are out of date or not, or if I get them. They're just little added bonuses for me as a reader.

In general, it's not a big deal for me so I don't really get Movieman's negative attitude towards it all. Something about it smacks of trying to show how knowledgeable he is about the writing game when really, it's about the story not what other people know about how it should be written. Right?

Anyway, just my two bob's worth.

Originally Posted by JosephB

Heh. Well, I never heard of them.

You've never heard of Robert Ludlum, possibly the greatest thriller writer of all time?

Oh sure, I've heard of him. I said I hadn't heard of the Bourne trilogy. I have no interest in thrillers at all, so there wouldn't be any reason for me to know about them or care, really.