Thread: Advice wanted regarding Writing training

Hi All

I have dabbled in writing (or attempted writing) for many years and recently got the bug to get myself sorted.

I attempted NaNoWriMo this year but am not going to finish I am just too far behind and life has got in the way, I will have to prepare better next year.

As a result I am wondering what is the best way of learning to write better, I know many of you will say just write or read but the type of person I am mean I learn better when doing a course of some kind. I read Sci-Fi-Fantasy all the time and I am going to go back to some of my favorites and study how they write as when I am reading generally I am lost in the story and do not notice the grammer etc.

I would have liked to do A level English Lit maybe (as my knowledge is very much focused on the subject matter I like to read, I would liek to get a better all round sample of writing), but cannot seem to find a local college that does just that course.

The Creative Writing degree looked really nice, until I noticed the price tag.

Can anyone suggest anything to help, or where I can go from here.

I will continue to write, doing some short stories and finishing the Nano project as I need the practice,


Thanks as always

Graham

English literature is about as boring as watching paint dry. I speak from experience. It won't teach you how to write good. In fact, what it will most likely do is give you an intense dislike of the language and the so-called "classics" they make you study. In my opinion, of course.

Creative writing is something I've spoken outwardly about a lot. I don't really want to get into it again for fear of causing another argument. Suffice it to say, while they may be helpful to some, a lot of the content is stuff you should already know and therefore isn't good value in comparison to their asking price.

Now to the ambiguous part. What do you mean when you say "I want to write better"? You want to improve your output; you want to improve your grammar and syntax; or you want to create compelling and interesting stories? Unfortunately, the best advice I can give you is something you've already mentioned: reading and writing. I wish I could tell you there was some incredible course you could take where a master of writing sat you down and opened page one of his book, "The Ten Steps to Becoming a Great Writer", and when you finished step ten you became a master. It doesn't work like that. Becoming a great writer takes years of practice, of finding your own voice and style, and learning how to combine everything to tell a great story.

Sorry I can't be of any more help that that, Graham.

I like the idea of not having to spend money, five kids tends to cost allot.

improve your output; you want to improve your grammar and syntax

All of the above. I can always come up with stories, although it is hard I have found filling in the sections in between my outlines. The book I have started to write for Nano when I look back over it is like a big long conversation! Just want some help or guides on how to describe, dialogue and things like that. Thanks for answering though

Well, one thing you don't want is to call it "filling in". Filler is bad. Everything should be relevant. There's nothing that annoys me more when reading a book than coming to the middle of it and seeing where the author lost his/her way and started throwing in immaterial c**p to boost the word-count. It's frustrating.

If you want to learn how to describe, I hate to say it but you really need to read authors who excel in descriptive writing. Sometimes excessive description, though, doesn't suit a certain genre. For instance, writing a thriller relies on pace, suspense, and action. Taking time to describe the ripples in the water is not conducive to any of those three. Sci-fi is something similar. It doesn't lend itself to excessive description, but it relies on it more so than a thriller.

At the end of the day, it's about finding a balance. Why spend half a page, for instance, describing a hospital when most of them are generic anyway? You learn, through practice, what to describe and what to discard.

As for dialogue, it generally needs to move the story forward. In your Nano book, how much of the conversation moves the plot on? Is it just two people talking about what they did the night before, what they had for breakfast, and what their plans were for the day ahead? That's not interesting. If you study dialogue in novels, you notice a few things. It's relevant to that specific time-frame in the story. It may have conflict. There will be a certain tone and diction to it that isn't in keeping with everyday speech. Dialogue is a language of its own. It doesn't read like language you'd hear on the street. That's because it's a device used to create character, advance plot, and create conflict. Keep that in mind.

Overall, I can't stress enough how much you need to read and write. It's essential, no matter how you feel about doing a course or whatnot.

Here's an article that seems to do a good job covering the pros and cons of creative classes. Having taken a class, I think most of it sounds about right. And some of it's just common sense.

Should you take a creative writing class?@Everything2.com

I took an evening class at a local university. It was relativity low cost -- about 120.00, so I didn't feel like it was a big risk. I think it would have been more helpful when I was just starting out, but I'm still glad I took it.

I enjoyed getting feedback in real time and being with folks who shared my interest. I think it was a good confidence builder too. Overall, it was a helpful and enjoyable experience. The gist of the article is -- there are no guarantees, but you can hedge your bets by looking into it thoroughly before signing up.

I benefited greatly from books written by Sol Stein. "Sol Stein on Writing" and "How to Grow a Novel" in particular. Here is a link to a brief summary of "Sol Stein on Writing":
Sol Stein - Stein on Writing
"How to Grow a Novel" can be used by its self, but is used better as a supplement to "Sol Stein on Writing".

I know you are looking for advise on a course to take, but I spent around $40 for those two books, and have been referencing them for years now.

I've had a lot of great experience with real life workshopping and writing classes.
I did two classes in 09, one cost $300 and was seven 4 hour sessions, the other was $600 and was sixteen three hour sessions.

I met one of my best friends in the second class, and another brilliant writer, who I workshop my novel with, and we workshop his together too.

This year I did a Professional Writing Course at university. It only cost me $580 because I don't already have a degree. IF I already had a degree it would've cost me thousands.

It is the most renowned writing course in this country and I wouldn't trade the experience. It's hard to get in, only 10% of applicants do. So they assume you're already a writer with some skill. Then they really focus on fine tuning that skill
.
My main teacher is a professional, published two novels recently, very connected in the publishing world, and a really fine teacher. A master of the craft. I already had a lot of writing knowledge up my sleeve from years of workshopping, but this year with her really opened my eyes to getting the most out of my writing. I have a publisher and an agent keen to see my manuscript when it's finished largely because of what I learned this year.

That said, sometimes studying the craft can get in the way of creativity. It's hard for me to just let loose and go forward with a story now, because I'm thinking about... everything.

Anyway. If you're social and work well in that environment, why wouldn't you do a class? It's a good place to meet other writers, it'll solidify some craft-based elements in your mind so you're aware of them. It's all well and good to be told to read and write more, but I never learned anything from just writing until I had people read and critique my work. Or maybe I can get my stuff to be 'this' good but it isn't until someone says 'hey, where the hell are all the visuals?' that I realise my stuff is missing it. Same with reading, if I don't pay attention, the story just carries me along. Some of that will come through subconsciously for you, but why not have the craft side of things pointed out to you so you're more on the lookout?

^^^ I think that's the best advice. Even though I have played the guitar since I was a kid, still taking guitar lessons from a pro was a great experience and worth the money. It helped my guitar playing enormously.

I have never taken a class on writing, but that's only because I don't have the same attitude toward writing that I do toward playing the guitar. An open enrollment class or seminar that's within your price range and taught by someone who has a decent reputation can only help; just check references before committing.

I think that the usual read and write a lot can cover a lot of ground, particularly with story ideas as well as punctuation and grammar. But there's a lot of techniques that authors use that aren't going to be overly apparent to readers. A reader isn't going to know that an author adjusted any sentence fifteen times before settling on a specific combination. They see the result and feel the effects, but don't understand how those effects can be replicated.

A novice writer isn't going to know simple concepts like 'show don't tell', utilising character speech to describe scene/action, the correct order for nouns in a sentence, selecting words based on readers, word choice and sentence structure for stress and tempo, methods to draw the reader in emotionally, creating characters that readers can connect with, etc, etc, etc...

They may intuitively be able to pull these off, like some writers can write in a specific tense effortlessy, but without some proper training/research, writers can lack in areas of importance.

And that's where forums like this come in. People can post their work, and more (and sometimes less) experienced authors can offer suggestions for improvement. Good solid feedback can make an author.

But there's a lot of techniques that authors use that aren't going to be overly apparent to readers. A reader isn't going to know that an author adjusted any sentence fifteen times before settling on a specific combination. They see the result and feel the effects, but don't understand how those effects can be replicated.

I think this is a great point, but I dare you to find a text that actually puts these hard-to-grasp techniques into words. The writers who practice them can't even explain them, the same way a professional singer can't explain to a novice all the nuances to her voice, how to inject emotion into a song.

Experience is the only way to learn these things, and, sadly, aptitude will come to determine how much people actually learn. I say sadly because writing is. . . hard, and I hate to make a superior, ***hole comment, but not everyone is going to get it. That's just the frank reality to any career, writing not an exception.

Originally Posted by caelum

I think this is a great point, but I dare you to find a text that actually puts these hard-to-grasp techniques into words. The writers who practice them can't even explain them, the same way a professional singer can't explain to a novice all the nuances to her voice, how to inject emotion into a song.

Who says the writers who practice them can't explain them? Writing isn't some etheral gift that is unexplainable. Obviously it's part talent, but it's also a craft.
Like painting or sewing or woodwork. The masters obviously have to have some natural gift to it, but after that they can certainly learn.

Originally Posted by Like a Fox

Who says the writers who practice them can't explain them? Writing isn't some etheral gift that is unexplainable.

Reading lessons written by many of my idolized writers have given me this impression. I don't believe advanced writing techniques are necessarily beyond words, just that many of my idolized writers, however good they are at fiction, suck at teaching.

I'm not arguing against the ability of writing to be learned; all my post said is that it's a reality some people will learn more than others. My opinion, though, is that natural ability really doesn't come into play that much, the vast majority of the craft is learned, which has always been my position here.

I have to agree with Caelum here, for the most part. You can only learn so much, the rest comes an inherent understanding of how readers understand words; which is mostly insight and empathy.

I think these core values are what makes a writer a brilliant writer. Anyone can describe a scene, and most can do it in a great variety of ways, but to have those words speak to any given reader in a specific (intended) way, that takes something more than what you can learn in writing lessons.

It takes core writing concepts (which I'm sure nearly all of us here know) and manipulates them to form a text that heightens the reader's awareness; breaths life into their mind and heart. Sure, to do this we need to know an amount of writing techniques, but the key is apply this knowledge into an area of our own; not that which was given to us in lessons.

This is a hard topic for me to explain clearly.. but the point I'm making is that you need insight and empathy to thoroughly mix writing techniques together and produce something that readers respond to. You can learn techniques, but the goal-directed application of them is the real skill. This is something that cannot be taught. It has to be learnt through reading and writing, as well as getting a lot of feedback.

Originally Posted by Like a Fox

Who says the writers who practice them can't explain them? Writing isn't some etheral gift that is unexplainable. Obviously it's part talent, but it's also a craft.
Like painting or sewing or woodwork. The masters obviously have to have some natural gift to it, but after that they can certainly learn.

It's actually a hell of a lot of a talent, some craft. Some things just cannot be taught. I can spend a fortnight with Billy Connolly or Lee Evans, and they can teach me everything they know about making an audience laugh so hard they wet their pants. But if I'm not naturally funny to begin with, it doesn't matter how long I take lessons from them. I will never be as good as a naturally funny person.

It's the same with writing. A lot of people think it's something that anyone can learn and learn well. I'm sorry, but I don't think it is. You can learn "show and tell", "passive and active", and every other piece of terminology they can throw at you, but if your story falls apart because you can't hold a reader's attention or because it's all over the place, there are no classes which can teach you that.

I believe the ability to write a cracking story is a gift; a talent. When I wrote my first novel, I didn't even know places like this existed. I still managed to finish it and everything made sense. There were no loose ends and no meandering plot-lines. Everything came to a conclusion in the denouement. I believe that is because I have a gift for telling stories. The same way that it found me, and not the other way around. Of course you can learn how to improve that gift. Even a prodigy has to learn. But my point is that the raw talent is already there; it just needs refining. I believe that's the difference between learned ability and natural talent. It's easier to nurture the latter.

I believe the ability to write a cracking story is a gift

I have noticed a tendency on the site to regard all writing as fiction. The utility of good grammar and the application of logic becomes clearer amongst those who write material whose content is dictated to them, the manual on how to construct the flat pack or use the new computer for example, but it's value is not inconsiderable even to the writer of the wildest fantasies. The plot is an art, but these crafts bring it to life and make it flow.