Thread: Posting lengthy works for editing and/or critiquing

In another thread it was suggested a forum is not the place for pieces approaching novel length to be edited and/or critiqued.

What do you say?

Define "novel length".

Why are you trying to be smart, Sam? You know what is meant. Tens of thousands of words.

There are barely enough hours in the day to work on my own novel, never mind editing or writing critiques for someone else's, especially in a forum environment. I'd consider working out something in the way of an exchange of effort offline, however. Although, I tried trading chapters with someone off-line before, and it didn't work out.

Online -- maybe a chapter or two, sure -- although critiques of chapters out of context don't seem all that worthwhile to me. I think you have to consider the whole novel for it to be of much value, and that takes an enourmous investment of time.

The short answer is, no -- I don't think it's practical.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

In another thread it was suggested a forum is not the place for pieces approaching novel length to be edited and/or critiqued.

What do you say?

Each to his own. When I click on a thread in the workshop the first thing I do is scroll down and see how long the post is. If it's huge then I'm much less tolerant of mistakes. It'll take a long time to read, I'm not gonna enjoy it because of the mistakes, and what's the point anyway if I'm not gonna correct it? Too often the OP's don't specify exactly what they want. Feedback? What sort?

I sometimes crit the first para. Sometimes I'll read stuff and lose interest and wonder why the authors are writing and posting several chapters when they'd get enough crits, and things to work on, if they just posted a page. Sometimes (as has happened to me) several pages are posted and the counter reads 40 views and 1 reply and you wonder if people have been intimidated by the long post and looked at the first few sentences only. Or perhaps, like me peeping at a long post, their thoughts are on the length of post so much they can't read it normally and lose interest.

Sometimes I think 'What does it matter if it's long? If it's good I'll enjoy it' But normally I lose interest early and try to tell them what, in my humble opinion, they're not doing for me.

Even if something's good, it's mentally hard to treat what you're reading the same way you would a book from the shops.

What you two gents have just said concurs with what I think. That seems to be three votes already, against the idea that a forum environment is any real use for the editing and critiquing of anything other than toy stories.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Why are you trying to be smart, Sam? You know what is meant. Tens of thousands of words.

Honestly, I wasn't. I just wanted to know how long you meant. Novels are usually upwards of 100,000 words, which would be impossible to critique in an environment like this. Maybe if the writer posted each chapter as written, but there just aren't many people that dedicated to follow someone's work like that unless they really like it. So, no, I don't think posting works above 10,000 words is really applicable on a forum.

It's no harder on a forum than in real life. Wanting a full critique of an entire novel is a tremendous ask no matter what.
There are ways around it. I would think, if you find someone keen, then getting them to look at small chunks at a time would be best. 1000-2000 words for fine detailed critique.
Then maybe send longer passages for overall structural critique.
Then maybe chat back and forth in IMs or PMs, discussing themes, character development, suspending disbelief, narrative drive. All that jazz.
Granted explaining that stuff in person is a little easier. Easier to do en masse, anyway. But I don't see that online is so different.

It may not lend itself to making threads on the forum and just waiting for whoever to turn up and look at it, it requires more investment. But in real life you require exactly the same.
Best suggestion there is to find a writing group who you can workshop your novel with. But good luck finding a group where you like everyone in it. I have two... actually, but I've been real-life-workshopping for two years now. And there are still people online, and through here, that I share my work with.


And actually, end of the day, I don't think you can really workshop your whole novel. At some point, you have to go forward with confidence and trust your instincts.

Even ten thousand words is a bit long for this environment. I have an article about that long I've written regarding the introduction of red tilapia into an integrated farming system and how aquaculture meshes with chicken, vegetable, and corn production. If we had a great many farmers and extension officers from tropical countries here, I doubt even they would find this to be the appropriate venue for such an article. I sense that a few people have gone to sleep just reading the previous two sentences.

Spider8 has summarised my feelings quite well.

Like a Fox slipped in with some good points while I was typing.

It is possible for a novel-length piece of writing to be critiqued and evaluated on here, but it would be much towards impossibility to ask someone to edit it in an open forum. I've noticed that some writers in the past have posted "such and such, chapter 5" and "this and that, chapter 7," and it might get up to eight or nine chapters before bottoming out. Several reasons might accompany this. First, the writer may not have written more than so many chapters, or is writing them on the fly, and the quality is becoming more and more outrageous. Second, the following or viewership of the story dwindles off, as life and other distractions intervene. Third, the readers lose interest as the story progresses. Et cetera.

I would suggest a work/trade agreement if you wanted serious critique and editing of a novel. A story for a story, probably e-mailed to one another. There is danger in this, too. Be sure you know who you're working with. Ultimately, I would say that, beyond a couple pages of free/trade editing here and there, if you really need the help in making your novel shipshape, hire an editor. If you just want to see how people like your story, then there's no harm in posting it in lengths.

Originally Posted by Mike

if you really need the help in making your novel shipshape, hire an editor.

If - little word with a big meaning.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

the idea that a forum environment is any real use for the editing and critiquing of anything other than toy stories.

There's a big gap between a novel or several chapters, and just a few paragraphs. Or are you hoping to reel me in? (well done)

Originally Posted by spider8

There's a big gap between a novel or several chapters, and just a few paragraphs. Or are you hoping to reel me in? (well done)

I stand by what I say. My guess is that very little posted in a forum ever finds its way onto the bookshelves. So, toy stories.

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

My guess is that very little posted in a forum ever finds its way onto the bookshelves.

I agree with this bit.

A critique on a few chapters should give anyone with learning ability all that they need to edit the rest of a novel for themselves.

When I started writing it would be over to the cockpit bar, overlooking the Serpentine in Hyde Park, with the old portable typewriter, paper and Tipex. It was a gathering point for writers and aspiring writers and worked as a casual writers' group. Hints and tips were picked up on any extracts shared and then applied to the rest of the work.

If people need a whole work critiqued and edited then that just speaks to me of laziness on their part. My impression of how critiques serve a really useful function is in highlighting weak areas and teaching the writer to deal with these and to grow as a writer. The growth is measured by how much he/she is then able to apply without needing to keep coming back for a reminder of where the work has been going wrong.