Thread: Starting with dialogue?

I am told it is foolish to start Chapter one with dialogue.

Setting the scene with narrative even if it is confined to three sentences, should take precedence.

It seems like a small detail to conform to, but I’m interested to know, would it put you off, if you opened a book and it started with six lines of dialogue?

That's nonsense. It's not something you see often, but there's no reason why it can't work. And I know I've seen it done. Who comes up with this stuff?

Three sentences? Why three?

Originally Posted by Josephb

That's nonsense. It's not something you see often, but there's no reason why it can't work. And I know I've seen it done. Who comes up with this stuff?

I'm inclined to agree.

Nevertheless, I was recently at a workshop given by Peter Cunningham,

www.petercunninghambooks.com

He used an exercise whereby he read through submissions at the speed and pace of a publisher’s reader, (which he had at one time been), commenting as he did so. When he came to one that started with dialogue, he dropped it on the ‘no’ pile commenting, ‘foolhardy’.

It wasn’t my piece, but I had written something similar and, in another forum, it received a similar response.

Three sentences? Why three?

Ignore the 'three', read it as, 'a small number'.

I think whether or not your tailor work specifically to satisify editors is another conversation. Is that a common reaction? Or does this guy just have an aversion to it? I have no idea.

I always enjoy opening a book or a story and being dropped into the middle of the action with dialogue. Of course, I'm not a fiction writer, just a reader, but it seems to me that, skillfully handled, opening with dialogue can immediately draw in the reader.

Originally Posted by JosephB

I think whether or not your tailor work specifically to satisify editors is another conversation..

Agreed, but there is considerable common ground.

Is that a common reaction? Or does this guy just have an aversion to it? I have no idea

I have no idea either. It's something upon which there seems little discussion. I borrowed a book called 'Make a scene', by Jordane E. Rosenfield. He makes the following remark:



"Here are some essential guidlines for opening this type of scene (action or character launch),

• Ground the reader in the setting before the dialogue begins."

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He is referring to a scene and I am left with the assumption it would be more relevant when applied to Chapter one.

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I found this on-line:www.darcypattison.com/revision/opening-chapters/

Ground the reader in the setting. The reader needs to know immediately WHEN and WHERE the story is taking place. Please use specifics here: Is this 1825 or 1977? Are we in Manitoba, Canada, or one of the Florida Keys? Specific sensory details should cue the reader to the exact location, even if you don’t specifically say where we are in the first couple paragraphs.
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It only excludes dialogue by implication.

Hence my question to you guys.

It seems like advice that might be good to follow as a rule of thumb ('Don't forget to set the scene - here's how you can do it') but it wouldn't put me off to have a scene or the beginning of the book start with some dialogue if it was well-written. If you do disregard this I would imagine it is because you're trying for an air of mystery, the scene becomes another question you raise in the reader's mind and they'll continue reading in order to discover the answer.

My view is that no matter how you start your job is to grip the reader by the eyeballs* and drag them into the story. After that you have to keep them nailed there till the end even if they're interrupted.


*Ox, that's a figurative eyeball-grabbing.

Originally Posted by JosephB
. Someone's idea of advice in one of these threads on editing was, "less is more." Really.

Originally Posted by qwertyman

How about - "As long as it's well written."

I believe this cheap shot goes over here, you get a lead star for digging so hard for it, though.

Back to the plot...

Originally Posted by Foxee

It seems like advice that might be good to follow as a rule of thumb

Yes, I can see the sense in that.

I wonder, due to the knee-jerk reaction of the 'editor' in binning it, whether it is more than that. Is it a deal-breaker?

Is it really unsettling for the reader to be confronted with WHAT and WHO before WHERE?

We've been talking a lot about opening sentences/paragraphs/ and pages in my novel writing class.

My teacher believes the first page is one of the last things that should be written because the whole essence of the story needs to be on that first page, in that first paragraph, even in the first sentence.

The hook needs to be there. We studied a lot of opening lines. Sex and death are common, because they grip someone instantly. Humour can do the same. A sense of character, someone to care about. And curiosity. A question we want to know the answer to.

So absolutely I think you can start with dialogue. But I also think it's worth noting that some publishers will do as Peter Cunningham did and drop it without really looking.
You want someone to pick up your manuscript and have no excuse to drop it. If it got picked up you could maybe convince the editor to agree with you on opening the novel with dialogue. But it would need to consider those other elements, and maybe it's a risk when subbing your manuscript.

Generally speaking, the first page should always start with prose.

Yeah, right. What, as Joe said, a load of nonsense. Start it whatever way you want, Qwerty.

Originally Posted by Like a Fox

So absolutely I think you can start with dialogue. But I also think it's worth noting that some publishers will do as Peter Cunningham did and drop it without really looking.
You want someone to pick up your manuscript and have no excuse to drop it. If it got picked up you could maybe convince the editor to agree with you on opening the novel with dialogue. But it would need to consider those other elements, and maybe it's a risk when subbing your manuscript.

Mmmmn, but what about you? If you were in a bookshop, would it be a pass if you opened the first page and saw the first six lines were dialogue?
Let's assume that it is competently written.

Would you be unsettled by WHO and WHAT before WHERE or WHEN?

My teacher believes the first page is one of the last things that should be written because the whole essence of the story needs to be on that first page, in that first paragraph, even in the first sentence.

Seems that the essence of the story could be captured a lot of ways (applying this to Qwerty's question) and dialogue could be one possible way.

Would you be unsettled by WHO and WHAT before WHERE or WHEN?

Probably not. I'd appreciate knowing WHERE and WHEN eventually, though.

If the book starts with dialogue and the dialogue is interesting I'll want to read more to find out who these people are and what they are talking about,

If I write a newspaper article using the inverted pyramid then I will have who, what, when, and where in the first sentence. That's a rule, absolute and unbreakable.

Belize City Police today arrested 45-year-old Joe Smythe of Bayman Avenue and charged him with murder in connection with the the August 8th shooting death of 37-year-old Leon Jones at Riverside Bar on North Front Street.

Now if the editor cuts everything after that, the reader has the most important facts of the story.

But I don't want all the important facts of a story stuck in the opening sentence or even page when I'm reading for pleasure. I want the details to be woven into a tapestry that I can enjoy viewing a bit at a time, watching the peices fall into place, the conflict develop, the problems resolved page by page.

The idea of writing the first sentence last does sound like a good idea, though. That way an essential 'feel' for the story can be established in the readers mind whether the opening is narrative or dialogue.

I'm working on a short story that is almost all dialogue, including the entire opening scene. I'll be brave and post it soon in Fiction.

Originally Posted by qwertyman

Mmmmn, but what about you? If you were in a bookshop, would it be a pass if you opened the first page and saw the first six lines were dialogue?
Let's assume that it is competently written.

Would you be unsettled by WHO and WHAT before WHERE or WHEN?

As a reader that would actually appeal to me. I like to start stories right in dialogue myself.
But my priority is getting my work published. And from what I know of the publishing world, tis best to be somewhat flexible to its petty whims.