Looking for Talented Writers, Editors & Geeks - Page 8 - Writers Forum

Pete_C · 05-11-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Non Serviam

Sorry to contradict you Pete, but it's completely the opposite: whether in US or UK law, copyright protects the execution rather than the idea.

So I could write a book about children who go to wizard school (using J K Rowling's idea) but I couldn't call the school "Hogwarts" (which is her execution of the idea). I could write a boardgame where you roll a pair of dice and move that number of squares around the board collecting cards--but I couldn't name the squares after the ones on the monopoly board. I could write a computer game where you run around shooting people, but I couldn't call one of the characters in that game "Duke Nukem". I could write a fantasy novel featuring elves, but I couldn't call one of my elves "Legolas". I could use the plot from The Tempest to write a science fiction story, provided I didn't call it "Forbidden Planet". I could write a song that uses someone else's tune, provided I don't copy their lyrics.

Or for a different test of the same principle, I can write down an idea for a story, but if someone else writes the actual story, the copyright in that story is theirs rather than mine.

Thus copyright law protects the artistic presentation: characters and their recognisable likenesses, specific plot points and scenes, and specific words and phrases. It doesn't in any way protect the ideas.

The law that protects ideas is called patent law.

In 2006, copyright infringement was legally defined as: The work should be substantially similar in design, structure or content, to the degree that it can be said that the work was copied or adapted from the original.

The law that covers copyright is the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. If you want to follow your own advice, I'd advise a lawyer and deep pockets!

I don't know enough about Potter, but if you wrote abook that had the same plot, albeit different names, and was even set in a different way, if she could prove a similarity to her novel, to her idea (not just names or places, but plot, sub-plot, character traits), if a judge ruled yu had copied her idea, you lose. You can't just change names. Your idea might be about a wizard school, but it would have to be original. If there are too many similarities, you have infringed her copyright.

It's very complex and subjective, and it worries me for the future of the project that it's so miusunderstood. There is NO hard and fast rule. If my lawyer can raise enough similarities, you will be found to have infringed my copyright, no matter what the names are or what genre the work is. Trust me, I've studied copyright for my job.

Also, if you accept to take on work as requested by another, payment does not transfer rights. The person that had the idea and requested the work retains the rights.

Patent, by the by, covers process. You cana chieve the same result, but not in the same way.

Non Serviam · 05-11-2008, 08:39 AM

There are solicitors and attorneys here; ask them.

Pete_C · 05-11-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Non Serviam

There are solicitors and attorneys here; ask them.

Only if I don't have to pay!

Copyright lawyers have taken a small fortune off me in the past.

Damian_Rucci · 05-11-2008, 12:19 PM

This is very interesting, I'm excited for when it comes out.

Cran · 05-11-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Non Serviam

Sorry to contradict you Pete, but it's completely the opposite: whether in US or UK law, copyright protects the execution rather than the idea.

So I could write a book about children who go to wizard school (using J K Rowling's idea) but I couldn't call the school "Hogwarts" (which is her execution of the idea). I could write a boardgame where you roll a pair of dice and move that number of squares around the board collecting cards--but I couldn't name the squares after the ones on the monopoly board. I could write a computer game where you run around shooting people, but I couldn't call one of the characters in that game "Duke Nukem". I could write a fantasy novel featuring elves, but I couldn't call one of my elves "Legolas". I could use the plot from The Tempest to write a science fiction story, provided I didn't call it "Forbidden Planet". I could write a song that uses someone else's tune, provided I don't copy their lyrics.

Or for a different test of the same principle, I can write down an idea for a story, but if someone else writes the actual story, the copyright in that story is theirs rather than mine.

Thus copyright law protects the artistic presentation: characters and their recognisable likenesses, specific plot points and scenes, and specific words and phrases. It doesn't in any way protect the ideas.

The law that protects ideas is called patent law.

You're correct that ideas are not covered by copyright; copyright protects a given produced work (limited to created works in the written, visual and aural fields), not the ideas behind it -

however they are not covered by patents either - patents are granted to new or substantially improved processes, and to new or substantially improved products not protected by copyright or ... damn! lost it - there's another form of legal propriety - oh well ...

in short, there is no legal means to protect ownership of an idea - because there is no way of enforcing it, or preventing others from having or sharing an idea ...

oh, if you want to write a song using someone else's tune, fine go for it ...
but if you want to record that song and give it airplay (without permission from the original song copyright holder), you're screwed ...
ask George Harrison ...

Pete is right that there are no rigid guides for copyright infringement, and it does come down to subjective analysis of each case ... in that respect, the greatest risk falls upon editors and publishers ... the law does not prevent copying or adapting, only the publication of the copy or adaptation without the original holder's permission ...

Mike C · 05-11-2008, 03:48 PM

OK, let's boil it down,as NS seems to like to argue copyright:

If you're on staff, and you design the mag a cover, the copyright of that cover belongs to the mag.

If you're a civilian and you submit an image we use on the cover, you retain copyright, but you grant us first worldwide electronic rights PLUS the right to use that image in future advertising, promotions etc (wording of contract still in the mill).

If you're unhappy with any of this, NS, just say the word and I'll remove you from staff, but you aren't going to change anything. I've been dealing with contract negotiation, copyright, industrial design rights, design patents, and patents on both sides of the atlantic for around ten years now and I'm pretty sure I know what I need to know about IPR.

Non Serviam · 05-11-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

OK, let's boil it down,as NS seems to like to argue copyright:

Yeah, I'm interested in copyright and I think it's important. I like to talk about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

If you're unhappy with any of this, NS, just say the word and I'll remove you from staff, but you aren't going to change anything.

Yeah. "I know what I'm talking about so it's my way or the highway" tells me that if I stick around, you and I are definitely going to fall out. Better if I bow out now.

When you go ahead with this, you do need an agreement that specifies the intent of the parties. Specifically you do need to be crystal clear that one person can't withdraw their submission at the last minute--it's simply too disruptive to the process (ask me how I know).

Mike C · 05-11-2008, 06:02 PM

If you want to bow out, it's your choice, I'm not pushing. Let me know by PM.

Contract is being drawn up as we speak. I've done this before, believe it or not.

papertears · 05-12-2008, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_C

In 2006, copyright infringement was legally defined as: The work should be substantially similar in design, structure or content, to the degree that it can be said that the work was copied or adapted from the original.

The law that covers copyright is the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. If you want to follow your own advice, I'd advise a lawyer and deep pockets!

I don't know enough about Potter, but if you wrote abook that had the same plot, albeit different names, and was even set in a different way, if she could prove a similarity to her novel, to her idea (not just names or places, but plot, sub-plot, character traits), if a judge ruled yu had copied her idea, you lose. You can't just change names. Your idea might be about a wizard school, but it would have to be original. If there are too many similarities, you have infringed her copyright.

It's very complex and subjective, and it worries me for the future of the project that it's so miusunderstood. There is NO hard and fast rule. If my lawyer can raise enough similarities, you will be found to have infringed my copyright, no matter what the names are or what genre the work is. Trust me, I've studied copyright for my job.

Also, if you accept to take on work as requested by another, payment does not transfer rights. The person that had the idea and requested the work retains the rights.

Patent, by the by, covers process. You can achieve the same result, but not in the same way.

What about satire and copyright? Is this anything I need to worry about in slushing? As a web admin for a state run university website about 13 years ago we had to hash out some policy because of some student's content that got us in legal heat.

I don't even remotely remember how it works, know if its anything that could come up--heck do I even need to worry about this? (I don't plan to write it, I mean for slushing purposes.)

Cran · 05-12-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papertears

What about satire and copyright? Is this anything I need to worry about in slushing? As a web admin for a state run university website about 13 years ago we had to hash out some policy because of some student's content that got us in legal heat.

I don't even remotely remember how it works, know if its anything that could come up--heck do I even need to worry about this? (I don't plan to write it, I mean for slushing purposes.)

Satire, and lampooning, are covered under the Guidelines for Fair Use (or Fair Dealing, depending upon which country you're in) ... essentially, it's not an infringement of copyright - if it was, 90% of the world's comedians would be sued ...

papertears · 05-12-2008, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cran

Satire, and lampooning, are covered under the Guidelines for Fair Use (or Fair Dealing, depending upon which country you're in) ... essentially, it's not an infringement of copyright - if it was, 90% of the world's comedians would be sued ...

makes sense. which country does the server hardware live in physically, errr, if i'm aloud to ask. i'm assuming that dictates the law we follow?

Mike C · 05-12-2008, 05:14 AM

You can ask anything. Servers are based in the US.

Satire/lampooning is fair game. As long as it's well done.

Mike C · 05-12-2008, 08:22 AM

CALLING ALL GEEKS!

Do we have a web designer in the house? With a little time to spare?

lin · 05-12-2008, 10:18 AM

What sort of time? What are you looking to get done?

blackthorn · 05-12-2008, 12:49 PM

I've dabbled in web page design. A little HTML here and there. Why? What's up?