NaCl

Pete,

I completely agree about keeping a potential business development private until the venture goes public. The only people I involve in my business plan development are the appropriate people necessary to secure the interests of all parties...attorneys, accountants, entrepeneurs, investors.

That said, your original post made references that clearly invited volunteer efforts from WF members in the initial development of a business. I am simply cautioning people that, if they consider their time to be of value, then they need far more detailed information to make a decision, rather than the pie-in-the-sky vague implications provided in your post. Here is part of your post that I find disturbing:

"Also, do not fear that this turns the entire scheme into a labour-heavy obligation. It will initially require no more effort or input than the original idea."

Note: The original idea from Mike C was principally an organization of volunteers, hence little, if any, expectation of compensation for the time spent. It sounded like a noble activity with intrinsic psychic reward. Now, you propose to use those same resources to build a business.

"It will, however, require a few people to adopt other less creative roles, especially in the early days. Also, should the thing end up growing legs to the point where it needs to be run like a business, it could be a nice venture for some people to take forward."

Note: Assuming it "grows legs", who are the privileged "some people" who take it "forward"? Do the prior volunteers suddenly become stock holders and sit on a Board of Directors? Is this ownership transition guaranteed...in writing? Will they receive equal dividends from the company profits? Or...perhaps an elite few will pony up the $$$ (or Euros) to become the new owners of a now-profitable business venture; a business that evolved on the backs of well-intentioned volunteers.

"There is an exit strategy to ensure that if it gets out of hand and is too big for WF members to continue with, or is taken on by a few individuals, everyone involved gets something back."

Note: You ask people if they are interested in volunteering their time, with only your personal promise that "...everyone gets something back." What do they get, an autographed picture of the new owners? Or, maybe an engraved gold pen! Details please! If you are going to publicly solicit people's volunteer efforts on the basis of some expected reward, then you are equally obligated to answer the public questions of what is the "something back" and how do you propose to guarantee those promises?

What I object to in that post is the solicitation of volunteer labor for a business that could potentially cut out the very people who made it possible. If the idea is so spectacular, fund it yourself (like all enterpeneurs do)! Then, if you want more "owners" in the future, offer shares in the growing business AFTER it is established. But, don't manipulate "volunteer" time out of people who should actually be compensated as employees, only to have an elite few with money or busines connections take over the project once it looks profitable.

I have been an entrepeneur my entire adult life. I have risked money and time building several businesses. In all, but one, of them, I subsequently sold my interest to other partners who wanted to continue evolving the company. At no time, did I ever dangle the hope of partial ownership in front of employees to get free labor. Your post implies potential for profitability but then you hide behind the veil of confidentiality, avoiding details for the very people whose efforts will get this venture off the ground. Dude...that's BS!

If you are soliciting WF members to participate in the new "business", then put your terms on the table. Make your complete business plan available to anyone who sends you a PM asking for details. You don't have to post it here on a public forum, but so far you have not even said you have a completed BP. You only talk about developing a plan with a set of vague references to:

- "...attract funding (from private entities,..."
- "...be distributed via some very credible and high profile sources..."
- "...many of the ideas are ones I've used in my working life in Publishing, others are borrowed from people I know, and it's all held together with basic business sense..."
- "I have a few ideas..." and "...make it more attractive to potential investors,..."

Anyone who would commit to your project based on these vague statements, deserves what they get! If your proposal has merit, I'd suggest you keep your "plans" in a secret vacuum until you are prepared to offer stock or partnerships to additional investor/owners...of course, along with proper disclosure and documentation. If its success is contingent on volunteer support then you need to publicly disclose the rewards for such contribution.

Pete, during my lifetime, I have seen thousands of pie-in-the-sky proposals attract funds or effort from less sophisticated people who were suckers for the "dream". If you truly offer a viable "dream" to the WF members, great! Provide the details. But, when someone trolls a public forum for free help, using vague implication of some future financial gain, the hackles on the back of my neck stand straight up!

.....NaCl

Ilasir Maroa

Hey, woah there, Salty. Now you're putting words in Pete's mouth. I'd certainly like details to see how this might go, and personally, I'd rather see it stay in forum member hands, but I don't think pete is trolling the forum for dupable volunteers.

__________________
My hopeful book:
Crap! Haven't posted it anywhere yet, darn!
"Only tyranny cloaks itself in shadows. The light of justice can not be hidden."

www.theoddvillepress.com

omginternetlord

This is really not the impression I get at all.

I see small sustained cash flow just to keep it running. I can't see any profit in it.

And also your worries about people volunteering to do this. People love doing this stuff for free. People are submitting work all the time on here. People are correcting grammar all the time.

And the idea of a product as a result; something tangible as an outcome will be a massive incentive for people to contribute.

NaCl

Mike C,

Numerous references were made to the development of a business plan but it was also stated that such plan would remain confidential for the time being. The "selection of ideas" presented, all depend on a strong business plan. It is ridiculous to suggest rewards for WF members in terms of a business arrangement while maintaining secrecy about the details.

You said, "Nobody is being asked to invest anything other than time."

Ultimately in life, time is our most precious resource. We have a right to expect a return on our expenditure of it. That "return" may take many forms...money, property, psychic reward, prestige...there is no limit to the ways we value our time. That is precisely why I took issue with the "business" proposal in this thread. I don't want to see WF members waste their precious time on that venture without proper and total disclosure. That is my sole objective in "spending" my own "time" on this subject.

I remain supportive of your original proposal as it is honest and presents its merit clearly, without misrepresentation or empty hyperbole. It's a great idea!

I would like to see your initial suggestion be developed...just as you outlined it. If it succeeds, then elevating to a formal "business" level will become logical and OBVIOUS. At that time, all parties, who helped to make it successful, will have equal oportunity and input into the formation of the business.

.....NaCl

ps I've offered sufficient cautions about the business proposal for WF members. I don't plan to comment further on this issue and I apologize if WF members find my observations unwelcome.

omginternetlord

The reward as I see it will be the increased chance of becoming known in the publishing world. I can see that as being a massive incentive for people to contribute.

Dan

Late to the party, as always. Anywho, I'd definitely like to contribute in one way or another. I think the only thing I'd have time for (outside of writing) would be copy editing. I'll do whatever I can.

__________________
http://mr-fixits.blogspot.com/

"Addicted" - A Serial Blog Novel

Cade Becker just survived a brutal attack at the hands of his big brother. Now, on the mend and wracked with guilt, Cade decides to find out for himself what could turn a good man into...something else. His search leads him from his quiet, suburban New York home to an all-but-abandoned town full of horrors and beyond, his brother's last words "Where is she?" still ringing in his ears.

terrib

count me in

CMM_Kaleido

Thank you NaCl for sharing your expertise and experience. Your cautions seem sound and well-intentioned. Personally, I found the advice enlightening and will keep it in mind--here and for future endeavors.

Mike C

NACL, your comments are welcome - as are all comments - but somewhat off beam, I think you've missed the point. Pete has made suggestions, some of which may or may not be implemented dependant on whether or not we feel they can take the project further.

I'd also remind you that you're not the only businessman or entrepreneur on the site. I've presided over a number of start-ups and currently run 3 successful businesses. I've also been involved in publishing for many years, where I've done pretty much every job from camera operator & platemaker to running the web press to senior editor.

Rest assured that this project is for the benefit of WF members, not for lining pockets; if members decide they don't want it, no problem, we can all move on.

__________________
My writing
Photography
Web design for Writers
The Oddville Press

Just Jim

Pete's idea is interesting, though it sure complicates the original intent. I have a few thoughts.

First, the idea that someone is going to steal our free labor and make a bundle is nonsense. We're talking "lit mag" here. The objective is to be able to print a classy rag; something that looks like Glimmertrain maybe ? And not lose your ass. Pete is right, a PDF e-book isn't going to get much attention.

Second, if people provide volunteer labor, they will expect preferential treatment in getting published, even if they don't think so. Remember, many of us ( not all ) think our work is better than it is. I know if I slush 30 or 40 pieces for free, I'll look at the stuff that gets printed VERY critically. Mike has made it clear that we have to select the best, not the best of WF members.

There are more than two options. In Pete's version, it seems some "group" would be able to decide at some point to take it commercial. If the venture has been started on volunteer labor, privatization should not be an option. The model looks like a not-for-profit (NFP) corporation. The corporate sponsors, and even private sponsors are recognized on a page in each issue. As a NFP, the editor could be paid at some point, based on board approval, but any "profits" would have to be used for things like free copies to libraries.

That way we could afford to produce the kind of product Pete envisions, and still have the volunteers know that they are contributing to literature, and not someone's wallet.

__________________

http://jimsstories.wordpress.com/
__________________
The Oddville Press
Accepting short stories, poetry, and art.

Mike C

The one rule I am personally imposing on this project is that staff members are excluded from the submission process. There will be no favoritism, whether real or implied.

The publication will be a pdf magazine. It will be non-commercial. It will be staffed by WF members, and all decisions about it's future will be made by wf members.

__________________
My writing
Photography
Web design for Writers
The Oddville Press

The Backward OX

I may not be able to help with the work but I can make a suggestion.

What you possibly need amongst your staff will be some with a remarkable memory for contradictions or inconsistencies, even if those mistakes are spread over an entire story.

If for example the writer tells us on Page 5 that a transit van the main character is about to begin driving from London to southern Spain is left-hand drive, then on Page 73 tells us the MC drove that van to the top of a hill with the Mediterranean on his right, made a U-turn, returned half-way back down the hill, pulled up and looked out through the passenger-side window at the Mediterranean, that inconsistency needs to be remembered and edited.

Writers make mistakes like this all the time. It is infuriating.

Cran

I'm pleased that you see it this way, Mike -
saves me from having to argue for it ...


Without pre-empting Mike C or anybody else with a say in the matter,
I seriously doubt any individual piece will run to 73 pages or more ...

but your point is taken, Ox ...
and one of the reasons why most pieces submitted for publication anywhere have to go through a number of readings ...
even then, errors can be missed (or even fudged in during editing or typesetting) ...

so yes, matching up abilities to tasks will have to be important ...

__________________
"I don't know ... I'm making it up as I go ..." - Dr I Jones

Nature abhors perfection - cats abhor a vacuum!

Raging_Hopeful

Well although I am not pleased to see some of this discussion turning into a "WTF!" I'll go ahead and state my own abilities and willingness to participate:

1. I have college experience in marketing and business entrepreneurship
2. Experience coordinating projects and producing publications (both academic and professional.)
3. I would like to participate in an Editor capacity if possible and am otherwise interested in contributing as much as I can. WF has given me a lot and I'd like to give back.

The original spirit of this idea has inspired me. I hope we'll keep it about the joy of writing and let the other details fall into place. We don't even know if it will "succeed" yet so it is useless to speculate on financial gain or turning it into a business.

One step at a time people...

__________________

Mike C

Generally each story will get many readings by several people before it makes the final cut. At NFG we had a fact checker whose sole job was to check facts; does the sun really rise at 6.52 in Nepal in August? Is the Transit left-hand drive? etc. But sure, nobody can guarantee that bloopers won't creep through. In Great Expectations at the beginning Pip encounters a convict, chained and shackled. At the end it's revealed that the convict escaped by jumping off a ship. The shackles obviously didn't impede his swimming...

But that's an aside. I think it's time we started pulling this together and assigning jobs.

Has everyone who wants a say contributed a name for the publication?

__________________
My writing
Photography
Web design for Writers
The Oddville Press