Silly Punctuation Question - WritingForums.com - Writing Forums, Writing Challenges, Critiques and Help for Writers

crash · 06-24-2006, 07:14 AM

Okay, so settle a bet. I know which one is right, but my boyfriend won't take it from me, even though I showed him an example in a book.

He says it's supposed to go like this:

Quote:

"My sushi has salmon in it." he said.
"My sushi has salmon in it," he said, "And I hate salmon."
"'My sushi has salmon in it', he said."

I say all three are WRONG, and it goes like this:

Quote:

"My sushi has salmon in it," he said.
"My sushi has salmon in it," he said, "and I hate salmon."
"'My sushi has salmon in it,' he said."

Who's right? And more to the point, can you explain why? Because he won't believe me. (And before I make a complete and utter fool of myself, this isn't some weirdo Australian usage, is it? I'd like to think I've read enough books written and published here to have noticed that sort of thing going on if it did, but just help me make sure.)

Thanks.

aspiring · 06-24-2006, 08:33 AM

Yes, his are wrong, although I have a hesitation over number three which I shall explain below.

The punctuation always goes inside the quotation marks, such as your first version: "My sushi has salmon in it," he said. It is a comma because the overall sentence runs from 'My' to 'said'.

Your second one could be best explained by pointing out that "My sushi has salmon in it and I hate salmon" is all one sentence. So even if you split it in the middle, with a 'he said' it's still one sentence. That's why there isn't a capital letter for 'and'.

The third one is slightly more problematic. Presumably this is one person quoting another, such as when telling an anecdote. In which case there is a slight ambiguity about where the comma goes. In a quotation, any punctuation used by the original speaker goes inside the quotation marks. However, there is nothing to show here that a comma was included in the original quotation, so technically either your version or his version could be correct. Having stared at it for a bit longer, I have to confess that I would probably go with his version for number three, simply because it is one person recounting what another person said and therefore adding in their own punctuation.

kad barma · 06-24-2006, 09:02 AM

my laymans (and frequently incorrect) opinion is that his are all wrong, and your third is, though technically correct, not something i'd want to promote as such. either way, good on ya.

but wouldn't we rather he said, "my sushi contains salmon"?

i've included this extra example to point out how unsatisfied i am with the convention that punctuation always stays within the quotation marks, and to agree with the similarly implied point made by aspiring. in my sentence, the question is not part of the quote, and i prefer to emphasize that by leaving the question mark beyond the closing double apostrophes.

*sigh*

sure would be nice to have a stickler's thread to take on questions like these...

crash · 06-24-2006, 06:58 PM

I'm not sure I see the difference between quoting someone and quoting someone quoting someone. Why should that make a difference where the comma is? There is not a comma at the end of the other quotes, and yet we use one anyway instead of a full stop, or instead of leaving the punctuation out entirely. As far as I can see, they're both quotes -- it's just that the author is quoting one person in the first examples and the author's character is quoting someone in the third.

kad barma, I know. I have trouble deciding what to do with that sort of thing as well. Your way is more explicit, but it looks so wrong that if I can help it, I just rearrange the sentence so I don't have to think about it. I'm pretty sure I've seen inappropriate punctuation outside quotes before in academic essays before, though. I'll keep an eye out for it.

I need me a new copy of Strunk & White, I think, or the book by that Garner fellow that Sars is always plugging over at Tomato Nation.

Thank you for the replies.

mammamaia · 06-24-2006, 07:44 PM

it's simple...

his are all wrong...

yours are all correct, if the third is a quotation with a quotation contained within it...

as for inside/outside, uk usage is to place commas and periods outside "" and us mandates they go inside...

uk also reverses the single/double quotation mark us rule, with singles used for quotes and doubles for inner quotes...

crash · 06-25-2006, 01:37 AM

Maia, I have to disagree on the position of commas and periods. I've read multiple books that were published and sold in the UK, and I have never, ever come across that. The single/double quotes tends to be optional, with the singles on the outside being preferred in the UK (but certainly not mandatory).

Thanks for the confirmation on #3.

aspiring · 06-25-2006, 04:38 AM

Quote:

as for inside/outside, uk usage is to place commas and periods outside ""

Absolutely incorrect. And I teach English, so I should know.

mammamaia · 06-25-2006, 10:42 PM

that's interesting, aspiring, since i'm always getting writing from the uk with them outside... and i've seen it done so in books from the uk, as well... is it regional, perhaps?

the CMA take on the subject:

Quote:

Here is how The Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed., pp. 160-61) describes the rationale behind its position:
<H1>Periods with Quotation Marks

AMERICAN STYLE
5.11
When a declarative or an imperative sentence is enclosed in quotation marks, the period ending the sentence is, in what may be called the American style, placed inside the closing quotation mark. If the quoted sentence is included within another sentence, its terminal period is omitted or replaced by a comma, as required, unless it comes at the end of the including sentence. In the latter case, a single period serves both sentences and is placed inside the closing quotation mark.
“There is no reason to inform the president.”
“It won’t be necessary to inform the president,” said Emerson.
Emerson replied nervously, “The president doesn’t wish to be informed about such things.”
BRITISH VERSUS AMERICAN STYLE

5.13
The British style of positioning periods and commas in relation to the closing quotation mark is based on the same logic that in the American system governs the placement of question marks and exclamation points; if they belong to the quoted material, they are placed within the closing quotation mark; if they belong to the including sentence as a whole, they are placed after the quotation mark. The British style is strongly advocated by some American language experts. In defense of nearly a century and a half of the American style, however, it may be said that it seems to have been working fairly well and has not resulted in serious miscommunication. Whereas there clearly is some risk with question marks and exclamation points, there seems little likelihood that readers will be misled concerning the period or comma. There may be some risk in such specialized material as textual criticism, but in that case author and editors may take care to avoid the danger by alternative phrasing or by employing, in this exacting field, the exacting British system. In linguistic and philosophical works, specialized terms are regularly punctuated the British way, along with the use of single quotation marks. With these qualifications, the University of Chicago Press continues to recommend the American style for periods and commas.
</H1>

and:

Quote:

In England and Commonwealth countries, the comma or period goes outside.
"In American style... you would write: My favorite poem is Robert Frost's "Design." But in England you would write: My favorite poem is Robert Frost's "Design".
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm.../quotation.htm

so, it seems to me that there is no clear 'absolutely incorrect' in re this matter... and i suspect the world will not stop spinning if we do either, in whatever part of the world we happen to be writing in, right?

crash · 06-26-2006, 03:10 AM

Dialogue is one thing, I think, and your example is another. Thus:

Quote:

Faulkner's title is taken from a quote from the Shakespeare play Macbeth, and hints at the amount of faith the reader should have in the narrators: his book is "a tale told by ... idiot[s]".

and

Quote:

"How can you like Faulkner? He doesn't even know what proper grammar is," Mrs Clark said.

are both right. (And they're badly written! I'm sorry.)

In the first case, there is no period in the quote. Well, there is, but it comes later, after "signifying nothing". You suppose there should be an ellipsis after "idiots"?

In the second, there needs to be a comma to mark the end of the sentence. Since the sentence doesn't really end until the word "said", we stick a comma in there, but the comma is just a substitute for the full stop that should be there. At any rate, it terminates the snatch of dialogue within the quotes.

That is how I understand it, anyway. I thought you were saying that commas or full stops or question marks or what have you should always go outside the quotes (in the British), like

Quote:

"You're a bloody moron! The punctuation and grammar get worse as Quentin's mental state deteriorates. And who are you to criticise this guy on his word usage? You don't even know the difference between 'effect' and 'affect'", I said.

Is this right, aspiring?

One more question for anyone who wants to answer. In my second example, I left out the period after "Mrs". In British usage, should there be a period there? I've also seen that both ways, but I'd like to know what the "preferred" usage is.

kad barma · 06-26-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash

In my second example, I left out the period after "Mrs". In British usage, should there be a period there? I've also seen that both ways, but I'd like to know what the "preferred" usage is.

i wouldn't think abbreviation would be different in any usage. i'd say mrs. always needs a period just as surely as all my sentences need capitalization, (capitalisation?), quotation marks or no.

aspiring · 06-26-2006, 01:43 PM

OK, crash first:

Quote:

In my second example, I left out the period after "Mrs". In British usage, should there be a period there? I've also seen that both ways, but I'd like to know what the "preferred" usage is.

Technically there should be a period, but the current preferred usage is to leave it out. If you read novels from about 30+ years ago, you will find Mrs. and Mr. but it is much less common now. Evolution of language rather than right and wrong.

Quote:

The British style of positioning periods and commas in relation to the closing quotation mark is based on the same logic that in the American system governs the placement of question marks and exclamation points; if they belong to the quoted material, they are placed within the closing quotation mark; if they belong to the including sentence as a whole, they are placed after the quotation mark.

OK, perhaps I wasn't clear earlier. When quoting, the rules are different and obey the guidelines above. The example you gave about Robert Frost's "Design" does exemplify the problem. I would indeed place the full stop after the quotation marks because the quotation marks are indicating a title. Some other examples might be:

1. Have you seen "Macbeth"?
2. I really enjoyed "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince".
3. When my family went to see "Aida", my dad fell asleep in the second half.

In all cases the punctuation is placed outside of the quotation marks because the quotation marks are merely there to indicate a title. In the first one, including the question mark inside the quotation mark would indicate that the play was actually called Macbeth? rather than Macbeth. If this rule is to apply, as your American explanation suggests it should, to question and exclamation marks, then why should it not apply to commas and full stops? Simply saying 'well, no one's had any problems understanding it so far' seems a little weak!

In the case of a quotation from a play/film/book etc, the rules are the same: if the punctuation is included in the quotation, then you place it inside the quotation marks, eg:

1. The first chapter begins with the sentence: "Fortune preserve you, gentle reader."
2. Macbeth refers to sleep as being "chief nourisher in life's feast."

However, when using punctuation in direct speech, it should always go inside the quotation marks.

I fear I have rambled slightly

but I hope that is somehow clearer.

aspiring · 06-26-2006, 02:01 PM

One more thing:

Quote:

That is how I understand it, anyway. I thought you were saying that commas or full stops or question marks or what have you should always go outside the quotes (in the British), like

Quote:
"You're a bloody moron! The punctuation and grammar get worse as Quentin's mental state deteriorates. And who are you to criticise this guy on his word usage? You don't even know the difference between 'effect' and 'affect'", I said.

Yes, I also thought that's what Maia was suggesting.

mammamaia · 06-26-2006, 11:07 PM

i don't think i said 'always' and if i did i certainly shouldn't have!... there are exceptions and 'adjustments' to just about every rule, but i did mean 'generally' in re the reversal of us usage... sorry if that wasn't clear...