Self Publishing - Page 2 - Writers Forum

mammamaia · 12-19-2005, 12:17 PM

maggie... that $99 is only the initial cost of getting the book in print... you are leaving out the inflated price the writer has to pay to buy his/her books, in order to sell them at an even more inflated price, that will keep most book buyers from buying them...

maggie · 12-19-2005, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammamaia

maggie... that $99 is only the initial cost of getting the book in print... you are leaving out the inflated price the writer has to pay to buy his/her books, in order to sell them at an even more inflated price, that will keep most book buyers from buying them...

You are correct that I did not include the price of the books. However, I am the one setting the price of the books and I have researched that very carefully. My book will be priced just like any other book of its size and genre. It will not have an inflated price tag. I'm smart enough not to do something stupid like that, thanks.

I will also NOT pay a hugely inflated price for my books either. I have spent days researching this project off and on over a two year period. I have worked exceedingly hard to find what I was looking for.

I do agree that many of the POD publishers ask outrageous prices for their printing services. I'm also aware that often those books get overpriced so that the author can make some profit. However, I also know from my research that one CAN find a POD publisher where one can expect to get reasonable returns on their retail price and not have to price their book out of the marketplace.

The thing is that if using those types of services, one MUST do the research necessary to keep from being stung. Having already self-published four books, all of which have been successful, two of which have been very successful I think I know enough not to get taken in.

Here's my reasoning...It's costing me $99.00 U.S. to see how this POD publisher works. I don't have any contract with them...I can cancel with 30 days notice, so I'm not stuck for any length of time. If I want to buy books I can do so at a reasonable discount. If they don't print the books up to my standard of quality then I won't continue to use them. If they do what they say they will do and I work with the book and it sells for me (which I expect it to do because I have a marketing plan in place), then I have gained and lost nothing. If I have to look for a different publisher then it's only cost me $99.00 U.S. That's a risk I'm willing to take, knowing that if it doesn't work I can't complain because I made the decision to try it out.

I'm wondering if your advice also comes from experience in self-publishing or using POD. If so I'd love for you to share your experiences so that we can all learn from them, especially me. I'm always open to learning things that will help me to make better informed business decisions.

Julianne · 12-20-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickie

[POD]'s much easier - and cheaper! Printing books the classical way is more time-consuming and a lot more expensive, so less leverage for the publisher.

Wrong--mostly. One of the major drawbacks of POD printing is that it is more expensive than offset printing. The only time offset is more expensive is for very short print runs (I think the break even is usually around 1000 copies, but I'd have to go back and check).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickie

Many establihsed houses are not very willing to accept the work of new authors.

Authors are not rejected by established houses because they are "new". Walk into a book store and look at all of the books on its shelves. At one time, the authors of all of those books were "new authors." Everyone starts somewhere. Authors are rejected for other reasons - poor writing, unsalability of story, the story didn't grab the editor, etc.

Julianne · 12-20-2005, 05:46 PM

Quote:

if you go through a publisher, unless you're very well known, you still have to do all the marketing and publicity. They won't be sending you on any tours or anything like that, so you still end up doing lots of the work on that end.

Another myth. If you are published by commercial publishers, you do not have to do all the marketing and publicity yourself. Commercial publishers produce catalogs that are shipped to book stores, book clubs, etc. They have a full-time sales staff that spends its time talking to book stores, book clubs, chain stores, etc., selling books by their publisher. They do a ton of work behind the scenes that is never seen by the book-buying public.

Unless the author is well-known, big fancy advertisements and book tours simply don't sell enough books to make ecomonic sense. That's why you don't see those very often.

maggie · 12-20-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julianne

Another myth. If you are published by commercial publishers, you do not have to do all the marketing and publicity yourself. Commercial publishers produce catalogs that are shipped to book stores, book clubs, etc. They have a full-time sales staff that spends its time talking to book stores, book clubs, chain stores, etc., selling books by their publisher. They do a ton of work behind the scenes that is never seen by the book-buying public.

Unless the author is well-known, big fancy advertisements and book tours simply don't sell enough books to make ecomonic sense. That's why you don't see those very often.

You are correct in saying that you don't have to do all the marketing yourself. Yes, publishers produce catalogs and ship them to stores, clubs, etc. Yes they have staff members who talk to book stores, clubs, etc. However, I can promise you that on those visits at stores etc. they might spend all of 30 seconds on your book. With a large catalogue they will focus on the well-known authors and you will be lucky if you get a mention from them.

If you go into book stores you can spend a few minutes focused on your own book. If you send a letter to a book store you will have the undivided attention of the reader and your book won't be just one of hundreds.

Additionally, typically, book salespeople do not go to specialty shops. For example, my first two books were cookbooks. The vast majority of those books never saw the inside of a book store. Many were sold in kitchen shops, gift shops, drug stores, through clubs using them for fund-raisers etc. etc. If I had been depending on book stores for selling my books I would never have sold near the quantity that I did.

I am currently working on publishing a book that will appeal to the New Age/ spiritual community. Yes, book stores will sell the book. However, there are literally hundreds (I have a list of over 700) New Age type stores that will never see a book salesperson. And my book will sell far better in those stores than in a book store. Additionally, I have contacted and will continue to contact New Age groups and other venues related to this genre and expect that these contacts will generate sales as well.

You are also right that book tours don't usually generate money for the publisher. However, the truth is that getting out and getting known is one of the ways that you can help promote and sell your book.

I don't have anything against traditional publishers but I do think that self-publishing has had a bad rap here on the forum and I'm simply trying to provide another perspective. Self-publishing was and continues to be a successful way for me to work with my books and I know many others who have also done well going this route.

Nickie · 12-21-2005, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julianne

Wrong--mostly. One of the major drawbacks of POD printing is that it is more expensive than offset printing. The only time offset is more expensive is for very short print runs (I think the break even is usually around 1000 copies, but I'd have to go back and check).

Authors are not rejected by established houses because they are "new". Walk into a book store and look at all of the books on its shelves. At one time, the authors of all of those books were "new authors." Everyone starts somewhere. Authors are rejected for other reasons - poor writing, unsalability of story, the story didn't grab the editor, etc.

That's just the question for me. In Belgium you don't print 1,000 copies at a time - few books sell that much over here! It's a very small country, see. I know of only one author who's made over one million copies by now, and he's a crime author. I usually order small quantities, like 20 or 50 at a time, and for this PDF is definitely cheapest! I pay around 5-6 euro net per book, while in offset this would be 10 euro!

Well, that may be true, but I think most established houses don't want to take a risk anymore. Like in publishing romance. Here they claim it doesn't sell. But I'm creating an ever growing public for it, and I guess in a couple of years Manteau (the biggest publisher in Belgium) will see that they made a mistake there.

Nickie

Stewart · 12-21-2005, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maggie

I do think that self-publishing has had a bad rap here on the forum

I think I said earlier that I didn't believe in self-publishing anything "other than cookbooks" but, when people like SPNews join up to the forum and post ill-informed nonsense with unclear terms then it's no wonder.

Julianne · 12-21-2005, 11:11 AM

Nickie:

Wow,I didn't realize that book runs were so short in Belgium. *grin* I should have clarified in my post that I'm from the U.S. where most publishers--even small ones--print more than 1000 books in the first run. Not all publishers, mind you. I'm sure there are very small ones out there that do less.

Connor and maggie:

I think that self-publishing is fine for certain types of books, niche non-fiction and poetry being the biggest two. Both of these types of books can be hard to sell to a commercial publisher because of the low expected sales. But low for a commercial publisher (say under 3000 copies) can be quite nice for a self-publisher.

Self-publishing or vanity-publishing (two different things!) fiction, on the other hand, is a probably waste of time and effort in my opinion. Fiction needs to be on book store shelves to sell, and that just doesn't happen very often with self- or vanity-published books. I'm not saying it NEVER happens, just that the odds are heavily against anyone selling more than a couple of hundred books this way. Self-publishing is a bit better here, because you can set the cover price and discount and allow returnability at competitive rates. All these things are prerequisites for getting stocked in book stores.

Mike C · 12-21-2005, 04:54 PM

It pains me to see this.

"I will also NOT pay a hugely inflated price for my books either. I have spent days researching this project off and on over a two year period. I have worked exceedingly hard to find what I was looking for. "

Why? Because I see so many posts where the research on which POD publisher to use has been meticulous, but absolutely no thought has gone into marketing. Those who intend to POD will probably not take any notice of my advice, because the drive to get into print seems to override everything else, but here it is:

I am not a published novelist, nor probably will I ever be, but I am successful in business. Once you decide to self publish, it becomes a business.

You've already researched your manufacturer for best price/quality ratio, you've set a price for your goods. What now? How will you persuade anyone other than your mother and the few friends who don't run fast enough to buy it? Seriously, think about that one. What is so compelling about your book that complete strangers will want to pay you money for it? And how will you convey that to a large enough number of them? How much time are you prepared to devote to that? How many hours per day? What do you price your time at? $5 per hour? $10? $50? How many books per hour do you have to sell to make it worth the business of selling books?

I've said to people many times, if you're serious, draw up a business plan. Let me see it. I haven't seen one yet.

I've been working closely lately with both a mainstream publisher and a new literary agency. Those who suggest that 'real' publishers don't push their authors, sell the books - you're just plain dumb. NO product sells without promotion. When you go into a bookstore and see those posters, who do you think paid for them? Authors? No. Advertising. See those glossy book ads? Who pays for them? And review copies of books, who pays? And all the countless other stuff that goes on behind the scenes. A publishing house that doesn't work hard publicising it's authors is one doomed to failure.

maggie · 12-21-2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

It pains me to see this.

"I will also NOT pay a hugely inflated price for my books either. I have spent days researching this project off and on over a two year period. I have worked exceedingly hard to find what I was looking for. "

Why? Because I see so many posts where the research on which POD publisher to use has been meticulous, but absolutely no thought has gone into marketing. Those who intend to POD will probably not take any notice of my advice, because the drive to get into print seems to override everything else, but here it is:

I am not a published novelist, nor probably will I ever be, but I am successful in business. Once you decide to self publish, it becomes a business.

I agree with you, Mike, that if a person is going to self-publish then they have to be prepared to market. Here's a sentence from my very first post on this subject.

Quote:

The thing with self-publishing is that you need to have a really good marketing plan in place because all the marketing and promotion is up to you.

I don't know if you read my first and second posts on this tread but it seems you might not have done so. I have already successfully self-published four books so I'm not new to this. And I can assure you that I have a marketing plan in place and have all kinds of plans of where to sell and promote my newest book. I'm not so dumb as to expect the book to sell itself. I know better.

I also agree with you that once you self-publish it becomes a business. However, that business may be something you choose to do in conjunction with another business you are running. There are many people who benefit from having a book (speakers, consultants, etc. come to mind) and so the self-publishing is in conjunction with their primary business and it is not expected to be their main source of income.

Quote:

You've already researched your manufacturer for best price/quality ratio, you've set a price for your goods. What now? How will you persuade anyone other than your mother and the few friends who don't run fast enough to buy it? Seriously, think about that one. What is so compelling about your book that complete strangers will want to pay you money for it? And how will you convey that to a large enough number of them? How much time are you prepared to devote to that? How many hours per day? What do you price your time at? $5 per hour? $10? $50? How many books per hour do you have to sell to make it worth the business of selling books?

I've said to people many times, if you're serious, draw up a business plan. Let me see it. I haven't seen one yet.

As I said earlier, I already have my marketing plan in place. What more can I say?

Quote:

I've been working closely lately with both a mainstream publisher and a new literary agency. Those who suggest that 'real' publishers don't push their authors, sell the books - you're just plain dumb. NO product sells without promotion. When you go into a bookstore and see those posters, who do you think paid for them? Authors? No. Advertising. See those glossy book ads? Who pays for them? And review copies of books, who pays? And all the countless other stuff that goes on behind the scenes. A publishing house that doesn't work hard publicising it's authors is one doomed to failure.

I'm not saying that 'real' publishers don't try to sell their authors books. However, the posters you mention are NOT often provided for first-time authors and that's a fact. You might see lots of Harry Potter posters but when is the last time you saw one for a first time author? Those glossy book ads you mentioned also do not typically get used for first time authors and any new author who thinks they do is dreaming. I agree that 'real' publishers will send out some review copies of the book, but again, not tons of them.

I have worked with two 'real' publishing houses and know other authors who have also worked with other publishers. None of us have had posters or ads in magazines.

Having worked with publishers AND self-published, I personally prefer to self-publish. I am schooled in the necessary actions to take to make a book successful and am willing to do that. If others prefer to go with a publisher that's great for them. To each his own. But I will never knock self-publishing. I'd be a fool to do that. Self-publishing has been good to me.

I also must say that I do agree that to self-publish a novel is much harder than to self-publish a non-fiction book. It seems that novels are harder to market that non-fiction. However, that said, if someone really wants to have their book in print and they are willing to pay the price and know what they're getting into and make an informed decision to self-publish then who are we to try to tell them not to do it? It may be the thrill of a lifetime for someone and I for one would not try to take that away from anyone. I certainly would advise them to know what the heck they're doing before doing it though.

valeca · 12-22-2005, 10:01 PM

Maggie,

You appear to have a well thought out plan and your feet firmly planted on the ground. This is a refreshing surprise to find when it comes to those looking at self-publishing. I wish you all the best and I hope you keep us up to date on your progress/pass on any information you have for others thinking of taking this route. It's great to get perspectives from both ends of the spectrum.

Mike C · 12-24-2005, 01:51 PM

Maggie, I have to admit I skimmed the thread and therefore missed some of your posts.

If you are able to both write, publish and successfully sell then I'm full of admiration; you are, however, in a tiny minority!

Congratulations on your success and good luck with continuing it.

Wes919 · 01-01-2006, 11:33 AM

I've read a few self published works and rest assured you don't want to get grouped in with those people. That is just my opinion, I would never want to self publish anything and I wouldn't advise it to anyone else.

SeattleGhostWriter · 01-01-2006, 01:20 PM

I am going to offer my thoughts and perspective on this particular subject manner.

The debate over whether a person should self-publish or not is a valid debate. On the one hand, you have the traditional publishing houses that have a long and enduring vested interest in seeing peoples works published. Yet, as one would scan through the latest Writers Market and Book Publishers that is printed each year, one will find that the odds of possibly winning any agent or publisher is very slim. Most agents, themselves are starting to focus upon "those who are referred over to another agent." Originally, it was just the author and a publishing house, then individuals jumped in to become the medium to take the load of the publishers as the evolution of the printing press began to increase over time. Agents then were the "filtering" mechanisms put into place (as well as an enterprunial of themselves) to weed out those authors who are not serious about publishing. These agents then increase and the Traditional Publishing companies saw the benefit these agents brought and now refuse to accept any "unsolicited" manuscript from a new author. Agents also saw a need to recognize new talent and to present this new talent to the Publishing conglomerates. Agents then realize that they needed to further filter out authors and have started (within the last few years) evolved into the mentality that they will only look at manuscripts and potential authors that are referred over to their particular agency.

A person could spend two years preparing their storyline, the manuscript, research the best possible venue of agents and prospective publishers. Submit solid error free query letters that are just as captivating as their opening line and enthrolling story. Their dreams rest upon the hands of business merchants who bartar for the best possible deal that would make them money. Agents and publishing houses have developed into a pool of sharks who are looking for the "best deal in town" that will fatten their wallet.

Now, not all agents and publishing houses are like this, but generally speaking, the nature of the publishing industry of Tradition has become a "privileged" club for those who are selected to be of the elite.

Now, going back to the advent of the printing press, the ability that someone could print word, relate stories and see these words carry over various venues of communication, people who also had an enterpernual spirit saw that the Internet was a good source to make some money and develop some business ideas. As all things evolve over time, so also did the standard of publishing. Suddenly, vanity presses, self publishing houses, Print on Demands are vying for works from people who otherwise may never possibly be able to see their particular manuscript published. This becomes a threat to the very flow of money that the Traditional publishing houses have long enjoyed on the hard labor of those who had sweated and patiently kept prodding and pushing their manuscript. Instead of spending 5 years (2 years of writing, editing, rewriting ect, and then 3 years to submit query letter after query letter) and then having to wait an additional 1 to 2 years before any actual work could be seen in print form, Vanity, Self-publishing, and Print on Demand offered an alternative route in a congested field.

Traditional publishers do not like this at all. Thus, the suddenly rise "Well, if you invested 5,000 dollars and marketed your own work, and you have made your money back - we don't consider you a "published" author". Yet, they will not look at any work that may have been posted on a website, or weblog because they consider the work "already published." To me, this is contradictory.

Where then is the solice for the writer? Well, the writer has a decision. A decision as to which road to traverse. Here is how I look at it. Traditional Publishing gets you name recognition, as well as an easier way of seeing second, third and fourth string works published easier and easier. But this takes time - to write, to research, to submit and query, and to actually wait to see the work in published and printed form.

Or, you can develop a good enterprenial skill and do it all on your own, invest your time and energy. Instead of paying an Agent 15 % of your royalties and advance, you keep all sales of your book. Instead receiving a check from a traditional publisher on a 5.% royalty of retail or wholesale of your work, you are able to keep 100% of the profits.

While the traditional publisher and agents require one to research and submit their work through their avenue because - after all, let's face it, it's traditional publishing and the best way to go, one could invest their own time and energy in developing their own marketing strategy, seek out a qualified individual to work with as far as editing the work and preparing the manuscript, invest their own money and publish the work through a self publisher and/or print on demand, keeping the money to themselves.

In essence, if there is already a store one could go and shop out, then is it wrong for a stay at home mom to open up her own online store? According to the argument against print on demand, vanity publishers, and self publishing - yes, it is wrong because there already exists a store, so why bother break with tradition? The answer is simple, man and man's society is ever evolving and must adapt. Eventually, the Traditional publishing house will have to adapt (if they haven't already) because of economic reasons, as well as reasons that majority of the people who are seeing their work published are by passing the Literary Agent and the Traditional publisher. In essence, the threat of the POD and the Self Publishing is that the Literary agent and the Traditional publishing houses are loosing money than gaining money, but hey, they are huge coorporations, let them have their "Private Club" and "private membership".

Any logical thinking person who investigates and looks at the pros and cons and makes a qualified and logical decision to self publish their work, then so be it. It is not the end of the world - well maybe for the literary Agent and the Traditional Publisher, because now, they don't want to look at a person who would actually has the capability of landing a job with a major firm as a marketing director, risk analysis, or any other employment opportunity by a mere self published work they invested in, promoted, and successfully marketed.

Hmmm which looks better on a resume? I published my first novel through Harper Collins? Or I self published and marketed my own book. This involved researching out the potential readership, ect etce? The latter is more impressive to me.

Timothy

Silvereagle · 01-05-2006, 09:19 PM

My thought? Well, Self publishing doesn't have to be expensive and you could do it and a publisher could buy it off you. THe harder thing is 'what are you shooting for?' Are you going to go BIG like Tolkien or Christopher Paolini or one of those books hidden on a shelf for special people to find. (okay, I'm guessing you're all 'BIG stuff! Wanna be a star!') The only thing I don't like about having a publisher publish my work is that you don't get paid as much as you would self publishing (50%). I'm stuck here in the middle myself...