Published - Page 2 - Writers Forum

thelatemitchellwarren · 07-01-2004, 10:05 PM

I can almost guarantee there will be no
censorship in dealing with what you just
described. Though I might have some
doubt as to whether they would let
Eleuth name his book, (well, you
remember).

I was wondering myself about the
"obstacle" requirement. What I think, is
that it's a nod to basic writing ability a
writer must possess. I think any good
writer realizes that a story (fiction
especially) must have a beginning, middle
and end, and the protagonist must either
be changed, overcome a complication of
sorts, or at least live through an incident
that will teach the reader something.
In that light, if one were to have a novel
without complication or obstacles to
overcome, the story would be about
nothing.

Ideally, I challenged that rule in my book--
I don't consider it to be an upbeat,
optimistic story of the human spirit
overcoming the odds, yet it fit the
standard literary format of a protagonist
overcoming complications or conflict in
some way. I think in essence all it means
is make sure the book is about something,
that it moves us.

Yes, I agree with your reasons for
choosing PA. It's like starting your own
business rather than just working for
Wal-Mart. Its an opportunity, albeit a
big gamble too, for you to succeed at
what you like to do. And like any
untested field, its something that
can be either a great success or a
colossal failure and probably nothing
in between. If you can self-market
your book to success than you WILL
gain the respect of others. It seems
like people only respect undeniable
profit these days.

I liked them for those reasons, and
also I got the opportunity to send
the whole manuscript rather than
wait for months on end for a
freakin query letter rejection.
(Besides, I strongly felt no mainstream
publisher would do my script because
it was too edgy & experimental) Also, even
if the book is less than successful, think
about this: your words are now
available worldwide to anyone. That
asshole David Masiel can debate it all
he wants, but all "published" means is
that your work can be purchased and
viewed anywhere. Now its up to
the author to sell it or keep working
a day job.

NO other company offers the
unpublished writer what PA does.
Yes, there are a lot of drawbacks to
PA and all POD publishing...But, well,
either take a chance, (and yes, be willing to
lose some money--don't blow your kids'
college fund on this) or keep sending out
queries to an editor or agent who's not
interested. Either way, have fun.

My book is not out yet, should be the end
of summer. I haven't decided on whether
to invest in buying your own copies. I
might buy a few extra to donate to certain
places that would be a good investment.
I really am leaning towards NOT doing that
to a large extent, because I agree with the suggested notion that PA makes the most
money by selling the book to its own author
+ friends and family. I would rather take a
more risky yet much more fun approach--
and invest the most in advertising and
marketing. You're not going to sell a great
deal of books out of your trunk or even by
local book signings. It's going to be
through advertising, and in my opinion,
internet advertising as opposed to local.
Though, if you're well regarded in your
community, that might work too.

While I obviously would prefer to sign a
deal with a major publisher, even if one
does, there is still no guarantee that your
book will sell a phenomental amount of
copies. It's all about marketing and a lot
of luck regardless of who you're published
with.

eleutheromaniac · 07-02-2004, 01:10 AM

Is PA a Print-on-demand publisher, or do you have to buy a bunch of copies and warehouse them?

Author House is a POD.

Here are the services provided by Author House (starting on page 5)

http://authorhouse.com/GetPublished/...nt_0629043.pdf

Any other publishers that you guys can recommend?

thelatemitchellwarren · 07-02-2004, 01:31 AM

Most of the "big" PODs are
PA, Authorhouse, Xilbiris and iuniverse.

PA is tricky because they act almost like
a POD company in terms of letting you
self market...but they don't charge
you for publication, nor do they make you
buy any books. (You are encouraged to
but not forced) They are traditional in
the sense of not charging you a dime.

thelatemitchellwarren · 07-02-2004, 01:32 AM

and vantage press, i almost forgot.

eleutheromaniac · 07-02-2004, 08:12 AM

I went to www.writers.net and checked it out. Basically their entire complaint about PODs comes down to this: you have to work hard to get your book in stores. Well, DUH!

The best response to this naivety was this post:

"Here we go again...The GREAT debate. To POD or not. I'm not new to the publishing world. I've been a well-published nonfiction magazine author since the late 1980s. Let's face reality. There are 5 giant corporate monsters in New York who are anal as hell and only look for what they think will be the next sure thing best sellers - say, the latest Bush screws America nonfiction trash or whatever.

Some so-called experts spout tirades that anyone turning to self-publish or POD are "vanity publishing" losers. What a load of naive crap. That kind of talk comes from people with zero experience in the creative world.

I've been an artist for 40+ years. During those times I've had to purchase gallery space (a common practice known as "four-walling") and rent booth space at conventions, shows and the like. Fortunately, I've experienced moderate success, have a strong following (just punch my name into Google)and my 3-D art has been collected and traded in North America, Europe and Asia. Nevertheless, because I PAID for exhibit space (as everyone does) the uninformed consider me, and others, as "losers". According to those thick skulled people, an artist never spends a penny to promote his work.

Wake up you fools. Picasso bought his own paintings at auction in order to create a market for his creations. Sam Clemens self-published along with many other famous writers. Independant film makers "four-wall" theaters to show their work. Blair Witch Project (whether you liked that film or not)was an incredible example of self-promotional success.

There are no easy answers. In today's environment we are fortunate to have promotional and distribution outlets unheard of 20 years ago.YES, you will have to work to push your work into public awareness. But in case you haven't paid attention, the big publishing houses have often ignored promoting their own authors, simply because their work isn't the "in" subject at the moment. Don't believe me, talk to others.

I've used agents in the past for my 3-D artwork and it was a washout. Not to say there isn't an agent out there who actually knows what he's doing. I've tied up work on an exclusive basis for a year or more without results, then pulled it and sold the art in a few weeks on my own.

Be wary of those who tell you there is only "one way" to market your creative efforts. We creative individuals have always been prey for others. We must be street smart in today's environment. Yes, there are scam artists out there and be wary of everybody. Check out the writer friendly sites, such as Editors & Preditors. Keep informed of the realities in this marketplace.

Keep faith in yourself and whatever you do. It will happen. Believe in the dream, then act upon it!

I'll step down from my soapbox now..."

I geniunely feel sorry for the poor saps who didn't know this going in. Of course you have to market your own work. You have to take it upon yourself. Even writers who publish with major publishing houses like Viking Press have to do things like throw expensive "Launch Parties" to get the word out on their book. AuthorHouse is apparently the biggest of the PODs mentioned, so the problems they had with PODs (not enough marketing push, high priced books) don't really apply to them (probably why they haven't said too much about them. I guess if you can't say anything good about a POD on that site, don't say anything at all).

I should also mention that Nietzsche financed his own works because he was so controversial that major publishing houses shied away from. (Whenever I do an interview with someone about my book, that's going to be my opening line. Feel free to use it yourselves.)

I will admit though that the majority of books published by PODs are pure smoking hot garbage. I did a scan of some of the books published at AuthorHouse: PU. But then there are a few that are well written and, surprise, surprise, those are the ones that are sucessful.

Of the 18 500 people who have published using AH, I'd probably say less than 500 knew what they were doing. Sorry to the other 18 000 chumps who thought they were writers.

Admitedly, my first book, Augmented Reality, is going to be a tough sell because of the unconventional writting style. But if Pollack could convince people that his paintings were worth $14M, then convincing a few bookstores to carry your work shouldn't be too difficult.

Basically, you have to know how to bullshit. If you can convince people that you are a brilliant, misunderstood artist they will buy your work. If they take one look at you and say "This guys a hack" then they won't. But that's the same whether you publish POD or not.

Airborneguy · 07-02-2004, 08:44 AM

Well said. Mitchell, what step of the process with PA are you at?

eleutheromaniac · 07-02-2004, 08:46 AM

What things are you guys going to do to help get your book to sell? Being Canadian, I'm going to try to play up the nationalistic angle locally.

eleutheromaniac · 07-02-2004, 10:08 AM

I read a bit more from writers.net. It seems that most of the people who are upset with PODs are the 18 000 chumps I refered to earlier. They published something that was utter garbage, and now, rather than admit they are bad writers, they blame the POD that published them. I really wish these people would get a clue, for their sake as well as mine. With these hacks clogging up the market, it makes it even more difficult for real writers to establish themselves.

Since POD is new, I think this problem will eventually go away. As more and more horror stories of non-writers surface, it will serve as a warning to future non-writers. For so long, it was considered a privilege just to get published. Now anyone can do it. But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

It's kind of the same thing that's happening in Hollywood. Hollywood has one of the highest crime and homeless rates in the US, because no-talents think they can just waltz in and become megastars. The sad thing is that there are many talented actors who were or are homeless because they can't get a gig because the marketplace is so clogged. I think it's the same thing with POD-published writers. Some aren't selling because they aren't good, others (a very small percentage) aren't selling because they can't get noticed, and aren't good at marketing.

I think to be a success in this business, you have to be good at both writing and marketing. I don't think it would be a waste of time for some of the writers on this forum to take a course in marketing (I did). You'll thank me later.

bobgelinas · 07-02-2004, 01:01 PM

Wow, what a convoluted topic. To tell the truth, several months ago I shared some information on Writers.net about POD vs. traditional publishing and also elected to refrain from frequenting them due to the blizzard of ignorance that pervades.

The truth of the matter is this: where so much confusion arises in this discussion results from the failure to distinguish between a manufacturing technology from a business model. Books are printed these days in one of two ways:

1. Digitally (sometimes referred to as POD "Print on Demand), a technology piorneered by Xerox and IBM, whereby complete books are rapidly printed one at a time. This technology is known for its low set-up costs, but high unit costs.

2. Offset Printed, whereby books are printed many at a time, known for much higher set-up costs, but much lower unit costs.

Quality-wise, a book printed with either method can be almost identical. Indeed, there are more options with offset printing, e.g. Symthe sewn bindings, thicker cover boards, variations in paper type, etc., but for the most part a consumer looking at a digitally produced book wouldn't be able to tell how it was made.

Most "real" publishers use both technologies all the time. Digital technology is used to produce books in low quantities when demand is low, or to keep a book in print that previously was in high demand, or to introduce a book to market in order to cultivate high demand. Offset printing is used when demand is high, i.e. measured in thousands not tens or hundreds.

Publishers also tend to be divided into two distinctive business models:

1. Vanity Presses, where publishers seek to make their primary revenue from authors in terms of publishing fees and/or small quantity sales. Some vanity presses don't charge fees, but are in the sub-class of what is known as "Author Mills" where the publisher looks to make a little money on thousands of authors. Vanity presses typically do little to no marketing and promotion, and earnings per author is minimal. They also do little to no professional editing or book design, because doing so would cause them to incur addtional costs. This business model doesn't preclude an exceptional best-seller; it just does't depend on any high-volume sales from any one title or author to achieve its business objectives. That's also why they are very "generous" with accepting novels for publication--they make money off of volume, and as long as the author and his friends and family buy some, the sales goal is achieved. Needless to say, most vanity publishers elect to use POD manufacturing technology due to the low initial investment per author. Rarely, will they commission an offset print run due to the fact that demand for any one title never reaches over 1,000 copies at any point in time (which is typically the low water mark of where it makes sense to print in offset, cost-wise).

2. Traditional publishing, where publishers seek to make their primary revenue from consumer sales. Traditional publishers are known for being much more discretionary in the selection of material to publish, i.e. looking for books that they have a high degree of confidence will be received favorably in the market, such that sales will be measured in the thousands, not hundreds. This is why they appreciate the services of Literary Agents, who do a good job of screening out most of the garbage and submitting the better, more professional caliber material. Traditional publishers then recognize their obligation to make that material as strong as possible before releasing it to the market. This reqiures investment in professional editing, book design, cover art and graphics, layout, proofing--the works. Then it is up to the publisher to decide which manufacturing technology makes the best sense for that title. Some books are offered via offset printing intitally, others are printed digitally and distributed in a targeted fashion to cultivate buzz and market momentum prior to investing in offset runs in order to increase the sales of the books when distributed in bullk. And most importantly, traditional publishers invest in the marketing and promotion of their titles to achieve the best sales results possible.

It is also true that a continuum of "gray area" exists between these two extremes in business models, with some publishers having a toe in the water of both camps. And that, too, can be confusing.

While is almost universally true that all Vanity Presses now exclusively use digital production (POD), the converse isn't true that all publishers who use POD are Vanity Presses. That's like saying: all axe murderers use an axe. It isn't true that anyone who uses an axe is an axe murderer. They might be a lumberjack!

Now this whole discussion is distinct from the topic of whether a person may wish to self-publish vs. seeking to get their work accepted and published with a traditional publisher. Self-publishing, by definition, implies that whoever you find to physically print your books, with either manufacturing technology, the person self-publishing is shouldering the burden for all the demand creation (marketing) and distribution of the book. Conversely, going with a traditional publisher is an assignment or delegation of the demand creation and distribution responsibility to the publisher. At least that's how it's supposed to work in a perfect world. However there exist two aggravating realities:

1. Most Vanity Presses are dishonest with their authors in making them think they are a traditional publisher, when they're not. That is, the author mistakenly thinks that after finally getting their book into print the publisher is going to do something to generate sales.

2. Most traditional publishers, inclusive of the largest in NY, typically only invest in the professional creation of their books and fostering general availability in the bookstores, but still do little to nothing to foster demand creation--with the exception of their biggest names (who probably need it least).

To tell you the truth, the recognition of the realities above was the impetus for my business partner and I to found our publishing house last year. We employ both digital and offset printing technolgies. We're a small traditional publisher, category wise, but in our view, working hard to be something more. Our books are all professionally edited and produced. We charge no fees to authors--ever. We invest heavily in the marketing and promotion of every title. Our business model is uniquely structured to favor new authors and new voices. Our primary focus is on Demand Creation, not mere availability. And I'm happy to say, it's working.

Hope you find this info insightful,

Airborneguy · 07-02-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobgelinas

1. Most Vanity Presses are dishonest with their authors in making them think they are a traditional publisher, when they're not. That is, the author mistakenly thinks that after finally getting their book into print the publisher is going to do something to generate sales.

2. Most traditional publishers, inclusive of the largest in NY, typically only invest in the professional creation of their books and fostering general availability in the bookstores, but still do little to nothing to foster demand creation--with the exception of their biggest names (who probably need it least).

Once again, I have learned from one of your posts. I must highlight this quote here, because it sums up one of the main reasons why I liked Publish America.
Essentially, for the new author, Vanity Presses and Traditional Publishers are the same. Unless you have something so great, that no matter what, everyone is going to buy it, they both do the same thing for you: get your book in print. Honestly, and this is not just a pat-on the back, I like your model, it is a gray-area situation that takes the best of both worlds, unlike the other's which skimp on some aspects to get into the gray area.
And finally, I have ot admit, it's all talk until my book comes out. then I'll see how it all works.

Eleuth, I don't think talking up your national origin will really help, BUT, as I am doing, use your local origin all the way. I guess that's easy for me to say though because my borough alone has 500k+ people and still retains its small town feel (because the rest of New York drops turds on us daily).

thelatemitchellwarren · 07-02-2004, 09:30 PM

Thanks Bob. I was counting the posts
until someone would bring up the
Print On Demand science, which I've
heard time and again, and yet never
can really explain it adequately.

Another tough reality about traditional
publishers is that they hardly publish
anything risky or truly edgy anymore.
It seems that more and more famous
authors (who are the only ones who
have the clout to write edgy stuff) are
complaining that major publishers only
cater to a mass audience and will only
print works that are traditional by
definition, or formulaic or routine, or
even pandering. Nothing truly avant-
garde or challenging. I guess it's
understandable, since they invest money
in their works and want to be conservative
with marketing. But it's exceptionally
hard on new writers to get their foot in
the door--especially considering that
new writers are anxious to try NEW
things and are resisting the urge to be
formulaic and safe by pure instinct.

I even quoted Stephen King on writers.net
and was then informed that well, stephen
king is a boring hack. lol

The majority of the people I argue with
(not so much these days since I left
writers.net) I are the ones who say
that self-publishing authors are fools
and should wise up and LEARN how to write
(no thanks, i got bills to prove I know how
to write) submit to a real agent, and
furthermore should beat themselves in
lamentation because of the unforgivable
mistake they've made.

My old buddy Mark York who has called
about as many names as Ozmandius
and then some, believes he was screwed
by PA and is trying to get every PA author
to join him on a crusade to get their rights
back and destroy the company.

I say, I've signed a contract, I'm ready to
sell it on my own, if it fails miserably then
so be it. But I am not going to cry like a
baby and blame the whole POD process.

I don't hate "Meiners" for being shrewd
and finding a way to make money on
most of these books (that I feel, are not
garbage, simply family histories with a
limited appeal). I say hats off to him for
a good idea, and for the SMALL
opportunity but still an opportunity to
provide struggling authors their 15
minutes of fame.

btw, bob, just as I was checking out your
website with wide-eyed optimism, I noticed
you only take agented submissions.

Well I'm Bob Dylan and you're The Man,
baby.

thelatemitchellwarren · 07-02-2004, 09:31 PM

Book's fixing to be released soon, airborne.

Going into the printing process, awaiting
free copies. I believe it's available for
pre-order, so I guess in the coming
weeks I have some work to do.

eleutheromaniac · 07-03-2004, 07:58 AM

Ask and ye shall recieve. Thanks Bob.

But, I would just like to say something about your 'dishonesty' comment. I can't speak for the other POD "Vanity Presses", but AuthorHouse was very straightforward with exactly what kind of marketing push they can give you. In fact, they give you a sheet of promotional options which specifically indicates what they can do to help promote your work, which I linked to earlier in this thread. They even send you a book that essentially says that if you want to be a successful writer, you are mainly responsible for marketing. And the book even gives you very useful tips and advice on self-promoting. I also found that AH seems to be a tightly knit community, with writers and publishers working together to help each other the best they can.

Though if there is dishonesty (and I'm sure there is), it is probably due to the fact that POD is such new territory in the writing and publishing industry, so there is a mix of ignorance and inexperience. The one thing that always came up on the writers.net forums, that I actually agreed with, was the warning to keep your head up at all times. A lot of artists are naive, and there are sharks in the water ready to snatch these guppies up.

It's good to see that there are small publishers like you giving writers another option. I hope when you reach your goal of becoming 'something more', you don't forget about the little guys.

"Eleuth, I don't think talking up your national origin will really help, BUT, as I am doing, use your local origin all the way. I guess that's easy for me to say though because my borough alone has 500k+ people and still retains its small town feel (because the rest of New York drops turds on us daily)."

I think you would have to understand the nature of Canadian nationalism to understand why I think this would be effective. Our country has become so saturated with American media, that when a Canadian artist comes along it's like a breath of fresh air. (All our artist are heading down south to make the big bucks).

eleutheromaniac · 07-03-2004, 08:07 AM

"Unless you have something so great, that no matter what, everyone is going to buy it, they both do the same thing for you: get your book in print."

I don't think it is so much about how great your book is, but how 'in' your book is. Take John Grisham, a complete hack in my opinion. He rode the wave of America's interest in courtroom drama (eg Law and Order, LA Law, OJ Simpson trial, etc.) If you're interested in making money, look for the next trend and grab on. Bashing Bush seems to be the latest one.

Airborneguy · 07-03-2004, 08:55 AM

Well my book will definately look like I'm imitating the "in" of the moment, but I am just writing what I know. My crazier stuff will follow..

I believe the thing about POD's and Vanity and non-traditional is that since they do accept sub-par works, people tend to believe that ALL the work is sub-par. In my case, I will never know what would have happened if I tried traditional, but I must say I specifically chose PA because of the aspects I liked. I actually was gathering a list of agents to test out, but gave up on it.

PA does seem to publish a ton of life-story books about basically normal people who think what they have been through is something special. I don't know about you mitchell, but I check out their forum daily. Most of the people, I have to admit, are a little strange, have been through something "hard", wrote about themselves, and are from the midwest. It seems to be their MO. But that in no way means you are going to fail. Who said, somewhere else on this forum, that the author of The Celestine Propecy self published it first? Anyone can succeed, you just have to know what you are doing and have something worth reading.