Language in my alternative history story and using english and dialects - Writers Forum

Silverbackman · 04-26-2008, 03:29 AM

Ok so I am brainstorming ideas for a alternative historical epic and I find myself back in the same problem I had during the previous epic I was trying to make. The main characters of the story will be from the Chinese Ming Empire and will take place mainly in the New World....particularly in Mesoamerica where the Aztecs are. This will occur right when Cortez and his Spaniards arrive in Mesoamerica....in fact the Chinese will arrive right when the Spaniards do (remember this is alternative history). Anyways, since the main characters will be Chinese....as well as a few other characters from other Asian civilizations like Japan and India........and along with the Spanish antagonists (including Cortez) and the people of Mesoamerica......I don't know how I'm going to handle this. I mean the Chinese civilization and language is still alive and well in use so substituting English dialects would seem to be out of place somehow. Not to mention all the other civilizations that are going to clash that are still here today with their languages and well. So what should I do? I don't know any Chinese and obviously I want this in English of course. How am I going to do this? I have a feeling I would be criticized somehow if this is published without using Chinese for the main characters for example. I could include an English man in the party on the ship set to the new world but I kinda find that out of place since I want to keep other European nations out for the first two parts.....and with the Spaniards arriving from the West. Anyone know any books that come into contact with the same issues.....like a book with Chinese protagonists but written in English? If so how can I use Chinese dialects of English when they talk to denote the main language used while still using the same languages for other civilizations in the book?

Any advice would be helpful, and I thank all those in advance who reply.

Wreybies · 04-26-2008, 05:45 PM

Well, here’s my opinion.

My focus in Anthropology was linguistics, and I can tell you that a given culture’s language can be vastly informative about the people who use it on a daily basis, but unless you plan to only sell your book to anthropologists or applied linguists, you are going to have a rough time getting anyone to read your work if large portions of the dialogue are written in a language they do not understand.

Your best bet is going to be your native English and to try and refrain from using overly colloquial phrasing or slang terminology that is clearly culturally dependant. Don’t have one of your Chinese admirals say my bad when the obvious choice would be it is my fault.

You can use the narrative to explain lack of understanding between your characters, but you need your reader to understand what they are all saying. Think of Star Trek. Do all of those cultures from vastly flung star systems speak languages which are mutually intelligible within seconds of meeting one another? Of course not. Now, Star Trek does have the advantage of having a technological gloss (translator units) to explain this, but even in Star Trek, sometimes the script writers allow the characters to understand each other when there is obviously no translator unit at hand. The plot must move forward and no one is going to tune in for an episode which is basically a language lesson, right? I’m a Trekker and a linguist, so believe me, it happened ALL THE TIME on that show.

You can sprinkle your character’s native vocabulary sparingly. But, really, it must be sparingly. Sprinkle too much and it will be distracting and off-putting to the reader. You want to tell the story, not give a language lesson, right?

Best of luck!

Silverbackman · 04-26-2008, 10:11 PM

Hello Wreybies,

My biggest worry is that when my Chinese characters come to the new world and talk about the fact that the Aztecs or Spaniards don't speak Chinese, that it will seem kinda strange since the Chinese characters themselves are speaking English. And then the later parts of this story when the English come to help their European Iberian allies that it will just seem strange that the English speak the same language as the Chinese who themselves are speaking English and calling it Chinese. Will this put readers off? I don't know how to avoid this paradox or whether it matters at all to begin with.

Wreybies · 04-26-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverbackman

Hello Wreybies,

My biggest worry is that when my Chinese characters come to the new world and talk about the fact that the Aztecs or Spaniards don't speak Chinese, that it will seem kinda strange since the Chinese characters themselves are speaking English. And then the later parts of this story when the English come to help their European Iberian allies that it will just seem strange that the English speak the same language as the Chinese who themselves are speaking English and calling it Chinese. Will this put readers off? I don't know how to avoid this paradox or whether it matters at all to begin with.

Flesh out your charecters well. Trust your reader to put the dialogue into context.

Ilasir Maroa · 04-26-2008, 11:21 PM

Try translators. Historically, the Spanish made constant use of them, and you can probably ignore the process by which these translators became bilingual, unless it is pertinent to the story. One possibility is using a bilingual POV character, and just relying on the readers to understand they are translating their recollections on the fly. And of course, avoid that afore-mentioned colloquial language. Depending upon the amount of research you want to do, and many AH authors do a hell of a lot, or at least some general consulting, you could try to incorporate culturallly specific background, which will help the reader to ignore the unfortunately glaring inconsistencies in relation to language use. The better the story you tell is, the more you're likely to get away with fact-wise, but you have to have something to convey a sense of ethos to the reader, and a sense of general accuracy insofar as that is possible for you to include.

lin · 04-27-2008, 12:30 AM

If it's alternative history, maybe there is a lingua franca or trade language like pidgin or swahili that has developed?

The ACTUAL history of the Spanish Conquest dealt with the problem in an interesting way. Cortez took an Indian woman around with him to translate. He had a son by her, commonly seen as the first of the Mestizo race to which most mexicans belong. The is commonly referred to as La Malinche, and was sort of a Sacajawea South.

If you have can't have fun with THAT sort of concept in a novel, give it up.

Silverbackman · 04-27-2008, 05:20 AM

Yes I have been thinking about using translators......the only problem is I'm still dealing with languages that aren't English. So even if the Chinese main character takes an native woman of his own to translate (as I was thinking of already to) the problem still arises of English. Early on in the story it isn't a big deal since there will be little to any British characters but later on the English will be there (well in the third part). The translators will be translating the new languages from either Spanish or Nahuatl to Chinese which obviously would be the main language........but I'll still run into the problem of the characters talking about not understanding other languages and wanting it in Chinese which is actually English they are talking! Even if I have one English character on board the main language spoken will be Chinese since this is where the ships will come from.

To complicate matters this won't be purely from the Chinese point of view. Certain chapters will deal with the Chinese only and certain other chapters will deal with the Spanish.....until they collide in Mexico. So certain chapters will be devoted to the Spanish account......and I obviously can't have the Spaniards speaking English too.

I'm thinking dialects might be the only way to handle it......and just not talk about the fact that their speaking English, even when the British come in but I'm not sure whether this would take care of everything. Say for example I reach the part where both Cortez and the Chinese Admiral meet each other on the causeway with Montezuma......there going to be requesting translations from the two even though they both speak English. I could though take the dialect idea further and just ignore the fact that they probably won't be speaking the same languages and just have them speak to each other in different dialects. As if they are using a universal language in a way, I dunno.

Wreybies · 04-27-2008, 10:22 AM

You're overthinking the issue. Both Lin and Ilasar have given you good advice which can be used in conjunction in different parts of the story.

Lin's and Ilisar's advice to use a real interpreter in the story is great advice. An interpreter often finds him/herself in a unique position of having knowledge not otherwise afforded to someone outside the inner circle. An interpreter can be a pivotal character. Read China Mieville's The Scar. Great portrayal of this phenomenon.

Color you charecter's well. Flesh out their unique cultural points of view. This will give your reader all they need to distinguish one from the next. This will require research on your part because many who enjoy AH are well versed in real history. You are obviously aware of the subgenre or AH. You must have some kicking around your room somewhere. Pick up your favorite AH book and read some, not for pleasure, but to see how the author handles his differing cultures and their linguistic differences. And remember, it's not the props, it's the actors that make a story happen. A well written and performed play can be performed on a naked stage and still transport the audience.

Silverbackman · 04-27-2008, 06:34 PM

But what will the interpreter be? English? Might as well write in first person then, right? I wasn't planning on this but I guess it could be done. Oh yeah and I should probably find an interpreter for the Spanish too since there will be chapters dedicated to them and from their point of view.

Ilasir Maroa · 04-27-2008, 07:11 PM

It would probably be easiest if the interpreter's natural language was that of the nationality in the veiwscreen at the time, and whicever group was the POV group would be speaking english.

Silverbackman · 04-28-2008, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilasir Maroa

It would probably be easiest if the interpreter's natural language was that of the nationality in the veiwscreen at the time, and whicever group was the POV group would be speaking english.

So in other words, the main POV group which would be the Chinese protagonists in some chapters and the Spanish antagonists in the other chapters would be speaking English (while the interpreter is speaking whatever they are native to but they learn the POV language). That was what I had in mind at first, but as I stated I'm worried about it looking weird especially when they talk about the fact that they are speaking Chinese or Spanish. Or maybe this doesn't matter, the readers won't criticize this will they? That these Chinese or European people are speaking English when talking about the fact that they are speaking Chinese or Spanish. And it gets stranger when you consider the fact that both nations from totally different linguistic traditions would be speaking English (the Chinese and Europeans in this case). Otherwise I guess I could make this from the point of view of two English brothers who go there own separate ways and tell the story from the first person. But I worry whether this would be less engaging and less interesting to the readers.

BTW, would readers consider it racist if I use the Chinese accent text (ie two dollar as oppose to two dollars) since that dialect would go better with the characters due to where they come from? Of course if I make English the natural language of the protagonists then I wouldn't need to do that I guess.

Sorry if it seems like I am repeating myself......I'm just trying to understand what is being said here as well as possible (which is after all what language is about

).

Ilasir Maroa · 04-28-2008, 09:52 AM

Don't use "dialects". The current POV will be thinking in their own langauge, where there would be no dialects, and so having them use a dialect would seem really odd. The truth of the matter is that the reader won't care beyond the fact that the POV is in English, and the other groups are translated. Plenty of books, including fantasy, sci-fi, and alternative hostory get away with this because it makes the most sense to a reader.

So, racism aside, it's best not to use "dialects", and just let whoever the POV at the time is use standard english. As long as it's clear which group is which, I doubt many readers will be complaining.

Sayuri · 04-28-2008, 06:09 PM

I think that the best thing to do--and this is hard, but it seems like you don't shy away from ambitious projects--is to develop two different syntactic styles based on the differences between the cultures.

That's wordy and probably not easily understood. Here's something more specific. Chinese culture is especially collectivist and referent. By collectivist, I mean that the fate of the group is more important than the fate of the individual. They would use the pronouns "we" and "they" a lot more than "I" and "he/she/it." By referent, what I mean is that Chinese people use symbols and implications a lot more than Westerners do. They don't like to say "no" directly, nor do they like to be asked directly what they think. Rather, body language and indirect ways of saying things are the norm. "I'll see what I can do" means "no."

Spanish culture, on the other hand, is individualist and direct. Also, Spanish culture is very showy, colorful, and emotional, which Chinese culture isn't.

In other words, rather than any dialect informing a language difference between your two groups, for the Spanish I'd use "I/he" pronouns, colorful language, and direct phrasing. Picture them, I dunno, waving their arms in the air a lot. For the Chinese, I'd use "we" a lot, very little if any colorful language, and indirect phrasing. Picture them bowing a lot.

Likely, their two speaking styles would actually lead to conflicts between a given Spaniard and a given Chinese person, because the Chinese way of not saying what they mean directly or their uncomfortable-ness at being asked direct questions would clash with the Spanish way of talking. Lack of proper communication and all.

Also, you can make allusions to values that each culture has within your dialogue. (Spanish = bravery; Chinese = doing your duty.)

I think if you utilize these cultural elements (and probably others I haven't thought of) within your dialogue, no dialects or different words of any sort will be necessary for it to be obvious when a member of one group or another is speaking.

Hope this helps!

Ilasir Maroa · 04-28-2008, 07:10 PM

Sayuri has given some very good advice. Cultural differences are a very good way to dfferentiate between two groups with dialogue written in the same langauge by necessity. Of course, since this is an alternative history, you should probably expand on Sayuri's wonderful advice even more and do some major research into the two cultures... which I suppose you'd have to do anyway, and use that to make them seem different.

Silverbackman · 05-06-2008, 02:35 AM

Weird, the forum for some reason wasn't working for some time. Thanks for all the advice, I'll take everything said into consideration.