PageOfCups

You make them sound like a evil secret society.

Arin

So here's the deal. Of course there is natural talent. Mozart did not write a symphony at 7 or whatever because anyone taught him how. His brain just somehow was inclined to musical composition. And we've seen it happen a billion other times in our own lives and throughout history. Okay, done with that.

The problem with what you're saying, lin, is that you are making vast generalizations about tons of people's experiences and, like someone else said, completely erasing them. You can't say a writing class never helped anyone write better. You CAN'T. Unless you have reviewed the work of everyone who's ever taking a writing class before and after the fact, you just can't say it. Not everyone can be a great writer. But in terms of their own scope of abilities, everyone can be taught to be a decent writer. And if do have the special spark, the gift or whatever, a writing class can bring out those gifts that already existed.

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O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend
The brightest heaven of invention,
A kingdom for a stage, princes to act
And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!

A Vaulter's Insanity

I think I've finally figured out what I was trying to say earlier. Its not that nobody is a 'natural'. Its that everyone has a potential to be a 'natural'. So how can you be considered a 'natural' if anyone has the potential to be better than anyone else? Now unlocking that potential is a completly different story.

And if you dont agree with me here, then lets just agree to disagree. sound good?

And what Arin said in his 2nd paragraph I completly agree with.

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Art is a lie that helps us see the truth

lin

NO, that's just obviously not true. What is wrong with you? If somebody said that about singing opera or playing in the NBA would you believe it?

The whole concept of a "natural" MEANS somebody special, and that they don't have to work at it. That's what the term is all about. Understand that?

You are clinging desperately to the idea that you might find a magic key to something, and getting into more and more ridiculous statements. For what?


You're pretty sure about that?

I am not saying what you say I'm saying. I am replying to this nutty stuff Vaulter is posting and continuing to assert that spending four years in college studying creative writing is a waste of a great opportunity and is not going to make you into a writer if you aren't one already. And in fact, serving your writing talent might be better done spending those four years in almost any other environment in order to enhance your life experience.

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A Vaulter's Insanity

Im not saying 4 years or college will magically make you a better writer by any means.

Ill give you an example. Brad Walker is an Olympian pole vaulter. But in high school he only went 14 feet. Thats not much higher than I'm going, and I'm just a junior and not even the best on my team. But then when he went to college, something clicked. He didnt get all that much faster or stronger, but suddenly he understood something and know hes expected to break the world record someday. At 14 feet I would not consider him a natural at pole vaulting. But right now he's the american record holder. And youve got to have some "natural" talent to be able to do that

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Art is a lie that helps us see the truth

lin

Being a natural is not about how high you jump. You just don't understand the word you're using. Why don't you try looking it up?

Actually your anecdote is kind of handy, since some people will say things like: so and so is a good writer and they took a writing degree.

Well, do you think what's his name learned things from teachers in college that made him jump higher?

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CaptainFreedom

I don't know if taking a creative writing course will make you a better writer or not, but if you're going to invest four years of your life into something then it had better be worth it.

The odds of becoming a successful writer are pretty much zero. Even if you're good, the odds suck. It's just too easy to produce something that looks like a story to someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. What I mean is that if you show a story to someone who is barely literate, they won't know it sucks, and won't give you accurate feedback. That's the reason that there are so many writers who don't know that they suck.

"Well, so-and-so liked it."

It's the same as taking a lot of acting classes and expecting to become a movie star.

Even if these classes will make you a better writer, there are more useful things that you could be learning in that time.

CF

PageOfCups

That's true. Also I don't really see what you can learn from that kind of course that you couldn't learn on your own if you put the effort in. It might force you to try out new genres, but let's face it, if you love writing horror and someone's telling you to write a romance when you haven't read any books like that because you don't like them, it's not exactly going to be a fun experiment. Where as if you love writing horror and deside on your own you want to give romance or some other genre a try you can easily go to a library and rent out a few books, deside if you like the genre and take it from there.

I doubt it would teach disaplin either since once the course is over you won't have any deadlines to hold yourself to.

strangedaze

My creative writing courses taught me discipline.

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His sins were scarlet, but his books were read.

Sayuri

NBA players weren't born knowing how to dunk. Or dribble. Or walk. They were taught all of those things, by coaches, friends, parents, or themselves. They also had to practice. A lot. And they probably studied technique a good bit, too. And I bet that they re-watched their games on video all the time.

Of course not everyone has the potential to become an NBA basketball player--there are very few of those. But a lot more people than that have the potential to become great basketball players--the ones who aren't drafted and go on to play on European teams, for example. And a lot more than that have the potential to become good basketball players--ones who play on college teams. And the majority of people have the potential to become halfway decent players who won't embarrass themselves while playing in someone's driveway.

Each person in that category, though, had to learn. No one was born an NBA player. No one was born knowing how to play basketball. No one learned the basics one day and the next was Michael Jordan.

(I know that there are a few exceptions to this, like Mozart and Beethoven, but there's a difference between being great at something and being a prodigy. There are a lot of incredible composers that did not write a concerto at the age of four, or whatever.)

The notion that good writers are "born, not made" is just so... ridiculous. Great painters are not born knowing perspective, light and shadow, or the mixing of colors. I can't imagine why some people think that classes can make people better painters, mathematicians, dancers, accountants, physicians, and musicians, but not writers. Everything except writing can be taught and learned. What a load of hooey.

Er, that was a long rant... sorry.

Anyway, in response to what PageofCups said: judging from the experiences of friends who have gone through MFA programs, I think that the most important thing to consider in attending one is how much the style of that department meshes with yours. Iowa, for example, does a lot of experimental/po-mo/literary work and they want their students to do that, too. FIU's big thing is genre novels, especially mysteries. I'm not sure where to find info on what college does what except to just look at their faculty and what they have written.

lin

Yes and their coaches taught them how to be co-ordinated and stand 6 foot 10. There's no such thing as talent, all you have to do is find the right school and buy the right books and you'll be great.

Ask the Easter Bunny for a list of the proper syllabus. Sheesh


Interesting. Your mama teaches me that. She's getting a little chubby for those leather tights and bustier, but she still swings a mean riding crop.

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lin

As a matter of fact, there's this guy who was a fetus one day and the next was Michael Jordan.

If you can't read this shit and figure out by now that you're humping the wrong bush, there's no hope for you. Best give it up and become a writing teacher.

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Sayuri

Ooh, clever. Is that what the ladies tell you?

PageOfCups

There's something that really hasn't been addressed here yet.

Imagination.

A course can't teach you that. It might be able to to teach you different techniques, different genres and all that kind of thing. It might even make you a great writer. What it won't teach you is how to come up with an excellant story because that's not something that can be taught. Some people just aren't story tellers by nature, just like some people will never be mathmatically minded no matter how much they practice statistics, algebrae and all other maner of maths.

lin

You got it. And imagination is hard to separate out from talent in writing.

What messes people up is not realizing that there just isn't much to learn about how to write. It's almost purely based on individual imagination, talent, voice, and way of thinking and seeing things.

A friend of mine, an incredible self-taught painter whose work sells for $5000 a piece on sight once told me, while scratching his head on how to bring an image element out fromt he background when it was already as high a value as possible, that the problem with mastering your craft is that there is nobody you can go ask for help. If you can't figure it out, there is nobody else to turn to.

In writing, where there is almost no technique involved, that situtation happens sooner and wider. What writers do, they tell their stories and do it in ways they dream up themselves of notice in the works of other writers. There's a whole industry built on denial of that, but there it is.

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