A Vaulter's Insanity

By saying there is no such thing as natural talent, im saying that theres nobody in the world that could pick up a pen with out any experience in writing and write something magnificent. Same with everything else. It takes practice and experience And by experience I dont even necessarily mean writing creatively. Someone who has a vivid imagination and a wide range of experience could become a great writer. It doesnt mean that theyre just natural, it took experiences and their imagination to become great. Same with sports and music. No one after just learning to walk can pick up a soccer ball and be awesome. They first have to learn to run, and then learn what the games about and then practice.


And just because you know a wide variety of styles and can introduce yourself to new stuff fairly easily doesn't mean its that easy for everyone else. Some people wouldnt even know where to look. A creative writing class can help you start the process. It obviously cant make you perfect, but it can get you started or make you learn the basics that you didnt learn when you first started writing.

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Art is a lie that helps us see the truth

SilkFX

To answer your question, lin: I was making money as a (technical) writer BEFORE I went back to school for my MFA. It allowed me to afford the luxury of an MFA.

As for my literary earnings: Sadly, I'm still one of the 99% of working writers who has to work to support herself (see above). But then again an MFA isn't the same thing as an MBA, which is a very important thing to note: The MFA by itself doesn't guarantee jack shit in terms of publication, earnings, or anything else other than MAYBE your getting considered for jobs teaching college comp.

So, OP, if you're going to make that kind of commitment, think REALLY hard before doing so. The primary reason for the MFA is to give yourself the time to improve on your writing in a concentrated and (hopefully) supportive environment.

However, if you're just talking about a single college course -- or even something offered informally, that's advertised in the classifieds or something ("Writing Group Meets Every Other Thursday") -- I don't see the harm so long as you do your research, as I mentioned before.

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To everyone who keeps saying "I can't start!" or "I can't keep going!" or "I can't finish!":

Early drafts are ALLOWED to be crap. Feel free to write the crappiest crap that ever crapped. Don't think about it...just get it all out on the page. Then roll up your sleeves and turn that crap into something worth reading.
The REAL work of writing is in REWRITING.
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lin

And what you are saying is absolutely, staggeringly, documentedly, notrorious untrue.

It happens ALL THE TIME. MOST of the world's great writers did not got to writing classes. MANY writers just sat down and wrote their first novel after retiring from other lines of work, or as young people, and then sold it.

I won't even bother listing people for you here. You are either capable of figuring out this really obvious and evident fact, or you aren't.

Writing, for the umpteenth time, is NOT something with technique and muscle memory and such that drilling and studious aquisition helps you with. It is essentially a way of talking, just as some people have picturesque speech and some are boring of "can't tell a joke.
It is very much about a personal mind, about "having something to say". If you don't have anything worth saying, no school in the world can change that for you. If you do, nothing will stop you from getting it across.

The whole line of reasoning you are on here is a bunch of crap. Sorry but that's the way it is. I don't know if you're trying to sell youself on the idea that if you spend enought money you'll learn how to write something worth a shit, or trying to justify tuition, or just repeating crap like SO MUCH of the junk that gets posted on writer's forums.

But it is a pretty stone cold fact that people write great books and successful books without any classes. You don't believe it, try researching it. Live with it.

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A Vaulter's Insanity

I dont really know how to explain what Im trying to say in a way other people can understand it.

Basically anyone can become a good writer, they just have to know how. Some people have some preconceived notions that tell them what a good writer is, but are untrue and stop them from becoming a good writer. Other people might just understand something right away, and are able write a brilliant piece of work right off the bat. Its not natural talent, its just that somewhere sometime in your life, you learned something, or obtained some other skill that helped you become a good writer when you first tried it out.

Like if you understand people well, and you can connect with them, then you can learn to be a good public speaker. And if you're a good public speaker then you know what people like to hear about and can put it on paper. Its not that youre a natural writer, its that you've learned what people like to hear and just put it on paper.

Now thats just one example of billions. And if you look at what Im saying, you might even consider that natural talent. I guess I just have a little different view of what exactly that means. Nobody's good at anything with out some prior knowlege or experience that helps them understand something.

You might not have anything to say because you dont realize it can be anything.

But ive got to say, if you go to a class expecting to emerge as an amazing writer, prepared to be disappointed. The class is suppose to be there help you discover your muse and use it, not perfect it.

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Art is a lie that helps us see the truth

Sam Winchester

Are you that naive to believe that this statement is true? Zerah Colburn was born a mathematical genius. Cassius Khan is the only Indian Classical musician in the world who can play the tabla and sing Ghazals at the same time. Kenny Wayne Shepherd picked up his first guitar at the age of seven, and is now widely considered as the best current, if not all-time, blues player in the world. Tony DeBlois started playing piano at the age of two, and can now play over 20 different instruments. These are called "natural talents".

Some people are born to do a certain thing. Creative Writing classes are a crock. Why pay money out of your pocket when all you have to do is pick up a book, look at the construction, and do it yourself? If you aren't already creative, what the hell are you doing writing? Honestly, if you aren't creative enough already to write the novel, there ain't no class that will help you.

Sam.

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seigfried007

I've taken a writing correspondence course and a college comp course for college credit (did the comp in high school). Both helped very much but for very different reasons.

I've always been able to tell stories, but I've also always had a problem going off on tangents. Great epics, horrid shorts, so to speak. Purely entertainment value, I was great though, because that's how I practiced as a young girl--telling myself stories to pass time.

Learned all kinds of neat things about storytelling without ever going to school--let alone paying for college courses. Lots of neat stuff about makingup fantasy races unlike anything people usually saw, characterization, romance, suspense and action sequences. No surprise that with a small prompt, I churned out some nifty stories of several genres in middle school and excelled in poetry (fiction writing was NOT a big deal in school, but poetry was mandatory).

But I wanted to write. And I wanted to do it very well--to write the best darned story out there to the best of my ability. And I wanted to get published.

Both courses helped me tighten my work--paring endless descriptions to the smallest but most essential details for the scene--through giving me set word counts and page numbers. Both gave me missions and encouraged me to try something different.

Here's an interesting example. I wrote a sci-fi story called Nightshade's Window about a young boy made from teh DNA of aliens who grew up ultra-fast y comparison to humans and therefore humans expected him to grow up fast intellectually and emotionally as well. One of his several mommies smacked him with a ruler for typos on piano and sexually abused him (the others were unaware). He gets stressed out after a really bad day and blows up in destructive alien powers. End of story.

Not quite.

Creative writing instructor pretty much ordered me to write it from the abusive mom's perspective. The result was A Difference of Six Degrees posted in the workshop.

I would have never thought to write it without someone else guiding that step. Most critiquing parties don't have the cojones to tell you, "No, wrong character for POV entirely. Gimme the bad guy's perspective (and learn something new, while you're at it)". I'd written bad guys, but that lady was something else, and my mind revolted against the notion of writing her.

Among other things, that course taught me a lot about workshopping, critiqueing, writer's groups, forcing creative inspiration on deadlines, researching markets, query letters and the many other social aspects of writing. I would never have gotten them right without someone who had been there to guide me or at least introduce me to people who could help. The whole subject of social interface at the time was frightening to no end for me--I'm something of a hermit, and I pretty much need to be forced to meet people (and certainly to ask them for anything, which is exactly what getting published is about--or at least where it starts).

HOWEVER, the creative writing course specifically paired me with a writer WAY outside my genre first and the first few assignments did me absolutely no good. I hated the course. I'm usually the type to suffer through painful social interaction (I'd done it for my whole life at that point) but this time my MONEY was on the line and I didn't stand for it. So I got myself paired with a different instructor through student services and thereafter did great and learned a great deal about my strengths and weaknesses as a writer an how/where I ought to go about getting published.

My husband took a couple courses in philosophy and witing in college and he hated them because, like many things in college, it was a PR game and if he didn't fit exactly in line with what the prof liked, he failed.

I'd say philosophy, psychology, sociology, history (more varied the better) and some choice science courses or other 'special interest electives' are great for writers, however. Depends on the prof like anything else (mentors are fertilizer for the creative mind or just a whopping load of shit to drown it).

Have writing courses helped me? Yes. More so than psychology or statistics or history? Not necessarily. They just taught me a different facet of writing.

Inspiration can't be taught, but people can be taught how to look for it in different places or to possibly find it a little faster. Techniques can be learned (I'd have killed for more technique training in art courses but sadly, all those teachers ever did was hand me assignments. Writing courses are usually a bit more forthcoming about technique though).

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lin

We understand it. We just know it's wrong-headed bullshit. You aren't paying attention, just continuing to post your wish-fullfillment philosophy despite massive evidence to the contrary.

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Wallmaker

Just take the class if you want to take it. Other people would argue with you college on a whole is a waste of time. But I'm guessing it's not for you. Nothing is a waste to you if you find something to learn and take from it.

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A Vaulter's Insanity

All those people can do that stuff because they understood something faster than everybody else. But it doesnt matter if somebody sucks at something the first time they try it, if they figure that something out 20 years later than they can be just as good as 'the best'.

And by the way, im not talking about people who have photographic memory or anything like that. Thats something different altogether.

Now that I agree with. If you cant be creative with out help, then no ones going to be able to teach how to be creative unless youre real young and your minds still developing and has a long way to go before full maturity. Maybe if you read a butt load it'd help, but not enough for you to suddenly become a good writer.

And I really like what Siegfried said by the way. Even if it were pretty long. :p

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PageOfCups

I'm not too sure about these courses. My friend is doing one and so far all it seems to have done for her is turn her into a bit of a snob when it comes to peoples writing. She always has been a bit like that, but the cource is definitely making her much worse. It's got to the point were I don't even want her to glance at my work because I know she'll rip it to pieces. It wouldn't bother me, but the critisism she gives it utter tripe that usually consists of "get rid of everything that's relevant to the plot" and over analysing everything. For example I desided that my main character has albinism simply because it's a condition that exists and that tends to be horifically misrepresented in books and she tore into it because of that.

So basically, make sure that the course won't turn you into a snobish git if you do it.

Wallmaker

A writing class a snob does not make. It's unfortunate your friend is doing that, but it's out of ego and arrogance and has nothing to do with honing your craft in a class situation. She's just using it to act supperior instead of supportive to other writers and, as you said, was a bit like that before.

Reminds you of that quote... writers are rarely likable.

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lin

True story.
Actually I don't hang out with writers and rarely have in my life. Most of my friends in the arts, chicks I live with, etc. are painters, photographers, musicians, or dancers.

Sometimes I question if there really is a "writers' community": it's the most solitary and innward of the arts. You sit alone in a room writing and nothing even MOVES.
What there is, I think, is an "editorial community" and it's a community I've learned to deeply distrust.

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PageOfCups

An editorial community? That sounds quite scary. Should I be thankful I've yet to encounter that?

lin

Perhaps a better word would be "conspiracy".

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lin

Possibly "confuckulation".

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