Erdhexe

Hello everybody!

There has been a little dispute going on about a grammar problem, and now I'm totally confused!

Here's the sentence:

The crowd of peasants, merchants and artisans was (were) ominously quiet as it (they) poured out of Anradem's alleys into its great Market Square.

Should it be "was" and "it" because it correlates with "crowd," which is singular? Or should it be "were" and "they" because "peasants, merchants and artisans" are plural?

Thank you in advance for your help!

Claudia

CodeRed

I'm not entirely sure of the answer, but I believe you could eliminate the problem with the addition of 'consisted' and some other minor changes to lessen confusion.

"The crowd consisted of peasants, merchants and artisans, and all were ominously quiet as they poured out of Anradem's alleys into its great Market Square."

__________________


All my best thoughts were stolen by the ancients. Ralph Waldo Emerson

NightOwl

You know what I'm going to say, lol, but I thought I might as well plant my soapbox firmly in the 'was' camp in this thread too.

Did a little googling to check whether I was mistaken on this point, but I've decided that I wasn't. It is explained quite well in one of the sites I found:

The first and most important rule in subject verb agreement is that the verb must agree with the intended number of the subject.

To accomplish that task, follow two occasionally not so simple tasks.

1. Identify the real subject
2. Determine whether subject is singular or plural

The first step is often made difficult by phrases and/or sentence structure that work to obscure the true subject.

Prepositional phrases are one of the main culprits in the misidentification of the true subject of the clause. Remember, objects cannot be subjects, so the object of a preposition cannot be a subject of a clause.

• The group of protesters is blocking the entrance to the building.
  • OF is a preposition; therefore, PROTESTERS is the object of the preposition. GROUP is the subject of the sentence and it is singular.

(Link to the site in question here.)

As you can see, the example given is quite similar to your sentence, at least in terms of the singular subject (group) with the plural objects (protesters/peasants, merchants and artisans.)

I will concede, however, that treating singular collective nouns, such as group/team etc., as plurals is fairly common, probably increasingly so. Therefore, you could probably get away with saying 'were' and it wouldn't necessarily sound wrong. To some people it would probably sound more natural, although it would not be grammatically correct.

I hope this clarifies rather than confuses the issue...

__________________
Written a publishable short story/poem? Why not submit it to the Oddville Press? Click here for more details.

Nighttime is really the best time to work. All the ideas are there to be yours because everyone else is asleep.
Catherine O'Hara

Non Serviam

"Crowd" is singular and therefore the verb and pronoun should be singular.

__________________
Born naked, helpless, unable to care for himself and completely open-minded, Non Serviam has subsequently surmounted all these difficulties and gone on to become a decently-clothed, self-sufficient, close-minded sod.

Erdhexe

I'd rather not write "consisted of" . . . it sounds like overly explaining it. I'll keep the sentence the way it is with the correct grammar.

Thank you all!

Claudia

phurst

Out of Anradem's alleys, into its great Market Square, poured the omniously quiet crowd of peasants, merchants and artisans.

Problem solved

I think was is right but it don't sound right therefor, re-word, ie the above.

__________________
Any questions? PM me because I may not return to your post again.

Do your part, find a 0 reply post and help them out.

I am what I am and you made me that way.

Lost in Some Story

I have to agree that the subject "crowd" is singular, and the verb should always follow suit. Therefore, "Crowd...was...it."

__________________
"Writing is easy. You only need to stare at a piece of blank paper until your forehead bleeds"--Douglas Adams

Erdhexe

Phurst: thank you for the suggestion. It was a good way of rephrasing the sentence, but unfortunately it doesn't match the context of the paragraph and the meaning of what I'm trying to convey.

Thank you as well, Lost in Some Story.

Claudia

HarryG

I think either is correct. 'Crowd' is a singular word with a plural meaning.

karax268

Not really, just because 'crowd' means 'many people' doesn't change the fact it's only one crowd.

HarryG

The sheep that escaped from the field was happy in its new surroundings, the other sheep were pushing each other out of the way as they too tried to find an escape route to greener pastures.

NightOwl

The plural of sheep is sheep.
The plural of crowd is crowds.
What is your point?

__________________
Written a publishable short story/poem? Why not submit it to the Oddville Press? Click here for more details.

Nighttime is really the best time to work. All the ideas are there to be yours because everyone else is asleep.
Catherine O'Hara

winkash

Up to here it might mean only 1 sheep but, from the context, it is clear that there is more than 1 (were, each other, they)
One sheep escaped, the others stayed pushing each other, like life itself.
So,

__________________
"All, all is theft, all is unceasing and rigorous competition in nature; the desire to make off with the substance of others is the foremost - the most legitimate - passion nature has bred into us and, without doubt, the most agreeable one."
Marquis de Sade

HarryG

I picked a bad example, as Winkash pointed out, I'll try again:


The gaggle of reporters, photographers and onlookers was unusually quiet as it waited for the imminent arrival of Heather Mills, but they were suddenly animated when they realised that she had left by a side entrance, and chased after her to hear another rant against the famous Beatle.


My contention is, and I may well be wrong, that 'was' and 'it', is just as valid as 'were' and 'they'.

Just Jim

I'm in the "was" camp, as I said in the story thread. You could actually improve the story and eliminate the problem with two sentences.

The large crowd WAS getting drunk and milling around aimlessly. The peasants, merchants and artisan WERE becoming ominous....

Now you have one of each, and everyone is happy.

__________________

http://jimsstories.wordpress.com/
__________________
The Oddville Press
Accepting short stories, poetry, and art.