Ok, you’re writing a novel. At what point do you involve others, and how? - Writers Forum

The Backward OX · 04-01-2008, 06:29 PM

Call ‘em what you like - critic, reviewer, editor, first reader, general dogsbody - others of necessity are involved in your production. You’re not likely to get the help needed in a forum - it’s a novel, remember. So what do you do? And when?

Non Serviam · 04-01-2008, 07:12 PM

"What do you do"--take it to a group of volunteer readers in a writers' workshop of some kind. If you live in a major metropolis this represents little problem, but if you're in the Australian bush, look for an online one (personally I use Critters Writers Workshop).

All such workshops will require that you read other writers' work in return for them reading yours, of course.

"When"--matter of opinion. Personally I suggest, not until you can't possibly make it any better without outside input.

The Backward OX · 04-01-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Non Serviam

"What do you do"--take it to a group of volunteer readers in a writers' workshop of some kind. If you live in a major metropolis this represents little problem, but if you're in the Australian bush, look for an online one (personally I use Critters Writers Workshop).

All such workshops will require that you read other writers' work in return for them reading yours, of course.

"When"--matter of opinion. Personally I suggest, not until you can't possibly make it any better without outside input.

Thanks. Very much appreciated. Critters only handle sci-fi, fantasy & horror, but do provide links to other sites for other genrés.

Associated question: what would you do if you were involved in such a process with a novel with 100% ghastly punctuation? Plough on, fixing it as you go, or suggest the writer go back to school?

Mike C · 04-02-2008, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Associated question: what would you do if you were involved in such a process with a novel with 100% ghastly punctuation? Plough on, fixing it as you go, or suggest the writer go back to school?

Depends if you want that person to still like you after.

lin · 04-02-2008, 02:01 AM

I don't get other people involved in my writing while I'm doing it and go out of my to avoid giving comments on other people's writing.

Writing is the Solitary Art. Not a team sport.

Non Serviam · 04-02-2008, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Associated question: what would you do if you were involved in such a process with a novel with 100% ghastly punctuation? Plough on, fixing it as you go, or suggest the writer go back to school?

I would say, "I'm afraid I found the unusual punctuation in this piece interfered with my enjoyment of the story," and I would cite one to three examples of the most egregious horrors.

But with Critters, you get to choose whose work you critique based on a writing sample, usually the first 2,000 or so words. I wouldn't pick up 90,000 words of novel by someone who can't punctuate in the first place--I'd only ever pick up something I'd expect to enjoy reading.

Non Serviam · 04-02-2008, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lin

I don't get other people involved in my writing while I'm doing it and go out of my to avoid giving comments on other people's writing.

Writing is the Solitary Art. Not a team sport.

I've seen you comment on other people's writing.

BOURBON · 04-02-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

LIN:I don't get other people involved in my writing while I'm doing it

I don't involve people either and would strongly advise against doing so until you have a fully formed story written to the best of your abilities.

I detest commenting on other people's writing. I do, but not often. I will no longer read the work of people I know personally. Few people are genuinely evolved enough to take crit on a professional level without becoming defensive.

When I have finished my first novel I am going to give it to the person whose brain I respect most in this world of fools and I trust that person to be brutally honest. He won't mention the typos etc (of which there will be many), but will wait until I ask him to proof-read after my final draft.

However wonderful you are at grammmar and spilling...I strongly recommend choosing someone to be your editor. I never let any of my work go out until it has been thoroughly debugged.

I have this theory Ox is giving us a huge build up before he reveals the fact that he has just written a magnum opus of pure genius...

Talia_Brie · 04-02-2008, 07:11 AM

I used to think you could get other people involved while you were working on something, and that everything that they suggested was going to add value in the end.

I also used to have an imaginary friend and think I could fly. Well, the flying thing was just last week, but you get my drift.

Now I know better. You get other people involved in the story when it's finished. Not when you've finished it, because you never will, but when it is finished. The story line is complete, the characters are as complete as you can make them. You'd hand it in if it was a school assignment.

I don't let anyone else read my writing now until I'm there. In fact I rarely even speak about it, because I've found that if the audience doens't react with the exact level of enthusiasm that I was expecting, I get ever so slightly discouraged. Just a little, but it's enough to undermine my previously insurmountable confidence. More stories die that way than on the roads during Easter Weekend.

Olly Buckle · 04-02-2008, 07:22 AM

I have never written a novel as such but I have developed some fairly complicated story lines. When the Kids were small I used to tell stories and found they evolved and developed the more I told them so nowadays when I am working on an idea I tell it to my friends, I don't tell them all at once so there is someone who hasn't heard it to be able to tell the new version to. I am having to be more and more careful about this as I seem to have fewer and fewer friends (I think that last bit was a joke).

HarryG · 04-02-2008, 05:31 PM

The time to involve others is when you submit your masterpiece to a literary agent. Before that, it's all down to you. You seem to be looking for something before that process, there isn't anything.

Unless you're not prepared. You've said, quite rightly, that an Internet forum won't provide the answers; a thousand books on the subject might. I can recommend two of them, one by Stephen King and one by George Orwell. That they are dated is irrelevant, their advice is permanent.

King's book is aimed at Americans, Orwell's at Brits ( to be blunt). I'm sure that your country also provides such advice, but I don't know of it.

Sadly, but of necessity, the advice on this or any other writing forum, will be practically useless for your latest inquiry. Buy the books instead.

phurst · 04-02-2008, 06:07 PM

Kings book is titled 'On Writing' and I highly recommend it. It has very good advice, like what you are asking, and it is an easy fun read. Whenever I get down about my success I re-read it and it pumps me up. I have several people that read my stuff but I haven't found anyone, or any place I trust for an unbiased read. You also have to remember that I may like it and the next guy not because tastes differ.

lin · 04-02-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

I've seen you comment on other people's writing.

Yeah, but I avoid it.
Generally I say something if I think it might help. (Even if "help" means convincing some hopeless loser to stop writing and find out what he's good at

But agreeing in advance to comment on somebody's work is fraught with problems. I rather like the internet system where you can pick or choose. Strangers.

I comment on few pieces, actually be 99 percent of what we see here (and on similar sites) is unremediably worthless. There is seldom much you can say, other than "dude you suck at writing and aren't going to get any better." Which is not worth saying. (I'm not going to be the poster boy for the next internet suicide

One way out is to go through and shape up the grammar. But there are those (you'll notice) who bitch about THAT.

Ilasir Maroa · 04-02-2008, 10:58 PM

I don't see anything wrong with involving people before a piece is "finished." People can and do help if you might be in a tight spot. Discussion can be very beneficial, and sometimes rather enjoyable. But that doesn't mean it will be. If you involve others, you should always do so with the undertsanding that it might be a totally useless enterprise. Personally, I've had someone work with me as an editor for fanfiction(

), and it helped me catch things I might have missed otherwise. But it wasn't very useful where the actual story was concerned. As you can imagine, there was a lot of "it's great!"(it wasn't) and "I love it!"(I didn't). Only the writer knows how the story must be written. In the end, the individual can often work better alone. If you "suck", as lin so aptly puts it, nothing will help anyway. Just be careful it doesn't harm.

BradW · 04-06-2008, 12:02 PM

I write my novels the same way I write my scripts. I don't let a single person read a damn thing of either of them until I've completed the first draft. If I let anyone read anything before then (be it a chapter or a scene), I'm likely to get completely derailed by a negative comment or that person will suggest something that sends the story in a completely different direction. I'd rather tell my story first in a first draft and then have one or two people I trust offer their opinions. But remember that opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. So just because someone has something to say, doesn't mean it's necessarily worth ripping your writing project to shreds for. After all, it's not like they're going to buy it so why go out of your way to please someone who's likely to get a free copy from you when or if it's published anyway? Too often on writing websites I've seen writers totally wreck their novels or scripts based on one person's comments. Then someone else has another comment and they wreck their novel or script yet again. Constantly trying to please different people. And at the end of it all they have is a piece of shit that doesn't please anyone.