Why all the obsession about grammar in the "Critique and Advice" forum?

[WriterDude]

I've posted my work there several times, and every time it's the same. People get really obsessed with the grammar, and only a few care what I write. Honestly, I don't give a shit about the grammar as I don't even write in english "normally". I'm from Norway, so I write in norwegian.
When I post part of a story in the critique and advice forum, I want just that. Critique and advice on the actual story, not grammar. If I wanted to make sure I have spelt a word correct, I'll use a spellchecker. Besides, it's not like I spent a few days writing something in word and then post it in the forum. I write it right there and then and don't edit it at all, as I think the overal story is much more important at this point than if I spelt who or whom.

I know this shouldn't be a big deal, but I've more or less stopped posting anything there as I get sick of the grammar obsession. Just a tip.

[FinnMacCool]

Well sometimes its easier to read when its grammer but yeah I get your point.

On another writing forum, all people comment about on my pieces are the fact that I don't use quotations.

[Ilasir Maroa]

Be careful, that attitude is part of the issue. People want to read something that's had some effort put into it. They don't want to critique a first draft, which will likely be heavily revised by you anyway.

As to the grammar, that's what most people are proficient in. It's a lot harder to critique the plot than the grammar, especially if it's a decent story. Many people don't feel comfortable critiquing the plot, though some venture into the style, or the devices, or the images, or the characterization.


If you take care to make your desires relating to responses clear, ie, writing an author's note at the beginning of the story, you're more likely to get the kind of responses you are looking for.

[strangedaze]

You can bet your ass I'm never going to critique one of your pieces. If you're going to just shit out some story without putting effort into making it the best you can with editing, I'm not going to bother.

And just to set the record straight: 'spellcheck' does fuck all for grammar. I can handle misspellings, but when bad grammar impedes your telling of the story, it's a problem.

Lastly, to be constructive, it might help if you put an author's note explaining what you're interesting in your reader focusing on. In fact, I agree with everything Ilasir said.

[Non Serviam]

Basically: if you can't be bothered to get the grammar right, then I can't be bothered to give you an in-depth critique.

Fixing someone's grammar is easy, so I might dash off a quickie post explaining where it's wrong. But I won't spend a lot of time on that piece.

There are people who work hard to get their spelling and grammar right, and I feel they deserve the attention more than the ones who don't. So if the spelling and grammar are right, you might get an in-depth critique from me, but otherwise you won't.

[ash somers]

Originally Posted by WriterDude

... Honestly, I don't give a shit about the grammar as I don't even write in english "normally". I'm from Norway, so I write in norwegian.

i think it's understandable
that your grammar should suffer
when using english as a second language

i find the best approach is to be honest with people
ask for what you want, you will either get it, or you wont
and cop it sweet, frankly i don't see any harm correcting grammar
if you pay attention long and hard enough, you'll fix said errors for good


now there's an idea

[Prof]

Personally I believe grammar should be like the construction of a building. If I look at a building I don't usually say "Wow, what great turkerpointing, and did you see the hinges on those elevators?" If I'm noticing that kind of stuff there is a problem, and if, in a piece of writing I am noticing the grammar, there is a problem.

I don't do much grammar correction because I expect it to done by the author. If he dosen;t take the effort to put out his best work, why should I bother to read it at all?

[Mike C]

Originally Posted by WriterDude

Besides, it's not like I spent a few days writing something in word and then post it in the forum. I write it right there and then and don't edit it at all...

I know this shouldn't be a big deal, but I've more or less stopped posting anything there as I get sick of the grammar obsession. Just a tip.

If you don't want your grammar trashed, get it right. I would have thought that was a pretty fundamental requirement for anyone with aspirations to being a writer. If you can't be bothered to spend the time editing, why should anyone waste their time critiquing?

It's really not a big deal if you stop posting; I doubt anyone will notice. And if you are serious about being a writer, I suggest you don't post again until you develop your own grammar obsession and start using it.

[lin]

Part of the answer here is this: you're not paying anybody here. you put stuff up and people react. If it's not the reaction you want, tough. Think about it.

Beyond that, it's easier to spot grammar errors than to go into big critiques on the story. Most of which is useless anyway. And subject to dispute. Grammar, on the other hand, is pretty cut and dried (yeah, yeah, I know)

You're getting free proofreading and bitching about it.

[Just Jim]

Several people here are willing and able to give great comments on the actual writing. Ash, Non-servian, Lin, and Loulou among them. All you have to do is treat them with the same respect you are asking for. I take the time to check my grammar before I post, and I get great comments on my story. They also comment on my grammar and choice of words, so I learn something there too.

If you don't know English grammar, tell us that. But I think you do.

If you're just looking for someone to tell you how clever you are, this is the wrong place. The folks here are trying to get better at the craft of writing.

[lilacstarflower]

"You're getting free proofreading and bitching about it." : Lin

I second that.

I also agree with others who say if you're looking for a specific type of critique e.g. character introduction, comedic pace, or style then you should ask people before the excerpt if they could think about those issues as they are reading the work. I usually get the critiques I find the most helpful that way.

As for grammar - I wasn't the best at English when I was at school and I understand a reluctance spend time on something which seems so dull but the fact is, if you want to write a good story, you need to know how to do it. It will add to your story by giving you a style that you are looking for.

[Tiamat10]

Um... 'critique and advice'. Isn't that obvious enough? Basic grammar and spelling is an absolute must-have in a writer. So, if you're writing in English and your grammar is not up to par, shouldn't you WANT advice on it? If you're so interested in telling your story, you should want it to come across in an understandable way.

Tell me, do you bitch at people that find bobbles in your Norwegian writing too?

[Selorian]

Anyone is likely to be able to come up with a great story idea. It takes a good writer to be able to tell it adequately, though. And to do that, they have to have a good grasp of words, their usage, and how it all goes together so the reader forgets it is just a story while they're reading it. If they stumble over grammar and spelling mistakes, the plot or idea doesn't mean squat.

[Sam Winchester]

If you haven't put any effort into at least trying to ensure your grammar is correct, why would I put in any reading your work? You have to give a little to get a little. Furthermore, your attitude about the whole thing won't win you any fans. If people have to struggle trying to make sense of what you've read, then they're not going to care much about the story, therefore that is why you are getting critiques mostly about your grammar.

Sam.

[Dawnstorm]

Bad grammar has a negligible effect on my enjoyment of the story. An elementary school teacher once gave her pupils an assignment to write a fairy tale. She showed the stories to me. Reading them was great fun; and although the grammar was generally rather bad, you could tell the difference between the imaginative stories and the derivative ones. (I distinctly remember a retelling of The Last Unicorn substituting a rhino for the unicorn, or a "storification" of a Sonic video game. But then there was the story about the prince who set out to save the princess from robbers but then decided to make off with their booty instead.)

I do think grammar gets better through writing (though some bad habits may become ingrained, too), so that not pestering people who know about their deficiencies in grammar but want to hear about the other bits of their writing, too, may actually be benificial to their improvement in that respect.

Finally: Grammar, punctuation and language flow are a line-edit thing; I don't usually do this until I'm satisfied with scene sequence, setting, character and plot. Doing it earlier would be a waste of time, since I'd edit lots of scenes I'd scrap or re-write anyway. I expect others to be similar. Whether a concept works or not (whether it be plot or character or strange idea) doesn't really depend on flawless grammar. I'd expect writers to be able to look past minor flaws at the general picture and talk about that, if that's what the writer's interested in.

I'm guilty of doing mostly grammar crits, myself, but that's because linguistics is a hobby of mine. Publishing is a business; manuscripts ought to be professional. But web-fora, in my opinion, are an informal venue, so posting a quick draft to test the waters before committing to it, or when stuck, shouldn't require the same amount of polish as a manuscript.

My favourite critique threads are the ones where the writer asks specific questions and people answer them (and perhaps even start up a conversation between each other). My least favourite critique threads are the ones where a writer asks no specific questions at all ("I wrote this. Comments?") and people all tell them to come back when they've started learning grammar. Both kinds are - sadly/luckily - rare.