Why all the obsession about grammar in the "Critique and Advice" forum?

[chimchimski]

I can't believe this whole subject of grammar has become so intense. Please, who takes his or her writing seriously and doesn't put any effort in correcting grammatical errors? I am at a loss for words just trying to conceive his notion that grammar isn't all that important on a writers forum. To be honest, I enjoy a good laugh every time I read his argument.

[BOURBON]

Originally Posted by Sam Winchester

Should we restrain ourselves from posting harsh critiques to younger people? If I'm being honest, no. If the work deserves to be critiqued in that manner, than it shouldn't matter what age, race, or even sex we are. This is immaterial. What is the point in saying to a 15-year-old that the work is okay if it isn't? That just encourages said person to continue writing like that. However, if you point out the mistakes and try to help them understand why they are wrong, it will ultimately work for the better.

Its about the setting on the microscope, Sam. You can give a younger/inexperienced writer a crit that will aid them to the next stage, which is likely to be more helpful than raining down on them with the full power of prof level editorial advice. I have read a lot of writing examples here and avoided posting crits, afraid of sounding dismissive and high-handed. Some of the younger writers are writing stuff far superior to my own work at a similar age, but, nevertheless, hopelessly embryonic. Who wants some big fat-head telling them their work can only aspire to scratching up the nursery slopes? I have taught creative writing (never again) and mentored writers (again, thanks but no thanks) and have always tailored my responses to the age and ability of the writer, aiming to improve their work rather than create a sense of failure. Here, in this place, I will go with what the majority decide.

More chocolate?

BB

[The Backward OX]

WriterDude raises a good point in saying he simply wants to discuss his ideas. To that end it shouldn’t really matter if there’s one or two errors of grammar. Of course, if this is what he wants, it is up to him, as others have already suggested, to put a note at the beginning to this effect – that it’s not really the finished story but just something to give others the idea of what it’s about.

Having said that, my experience has been that not everybody absorbs the opening line. They’re too busy rushing further down so that they may read the guts of the post.

Here’s something else. I am presently involved in reviewing an entire novel. I don’t know whether you’d call me a critiquer or an editor/proofreader or a rewriter. I do know that what I’m doing is both giving my opinion on various parts of the story/suggesting alternatives AND correcting punctuation. The author’s punctuation is ghastly, so bad in places that the entire meaning of a sentence is ambiguous. So I correct it. Should I have said to that author “Sod off and fix your punctuation first so that I know what I’m reading”?

[strangedaze]

You could've, if you wanted to. My own personal philosophy is, if it works, it works. If it's not working, and part of the reason why it isn't is grammar or what have you, then it's worth bringing up.

[Mike C]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Should I have said to that author “Sod off and fix your punctuation first so that I know what I’m reading”?

That would have been your choice. There's a difference between entering into a one-to-one agreement and throwing your work to the lions.

[Randatos]

You said in your first post that 'Honestly, I don't give a shit about the grammar.' The only thing this brings to mind is 'then why are you bothering working with a craft that you have no choice to? I haven't read any of your works here, but your attitude makes me not want to read any of it anyway. This would be like saying 'Honestly, I don't give a shit if my movie is black and white,' or 'I don't give a shit if my music sounds like nails on a blackboard.' If you don't want to write, why are you writing?

You say that you want to discuss ideas and not grammar. There's nothing wrong with that. But when people post their stories for critiquing that want critiquing. If you want something else, just say so.

Like Prof said, grammar is a building block to writing. If you post on a board for critiquing grammar is the first thing people will notice. If it's bad, people won't even bother seeing the story behind the moldy and crumbling bricks.

[Sam Winchester]

Originally Posted by BOURBON

Its about the setting on the microscope, Sam. You can give a younger/inexperienced writer a crit that will aid them to the next stage, which is likely to be more helpful than raining down on them with the full power of prof level editorial advice. I have read a lot of writing examples here and avoided posting crits, afraid of sounding dismissive and high-handed. Some of the younger writers are writing stuff far superior to my own work at a similar age, but, nevertheless, hopelessly embryonic. Who wants some big fat-head telling them their work can only aspire to scratching up the nursery slopes? I have taught creative writing (never again) and mentored writers (again, thanks but no thanks) and have always tailored my responses to the age and ability of the writer, aiming to improve their work rather than create a sense of failure. Here, in this place, I will go with what the majority decide.

More chocolate?

BB

You ever watch American Idol or X-Factor, Bourbon? That's exactly what happens when parents and family members encourage a young person to continue singing because they're too afraid to tell them that they're rubbish. Sometimes in life you have to be cruel to be kind. I'll agree with you that some young people on this site are fairly talented writers; vastly more so than I was at that age. But if I wasn't my hardest critic, and I hadn't a family who pointed out every mistake I made, I wouldn't where I am today. There is no point mothering people and taking the baby approach. It is not of any benefit to them. I'm not saying you have to be an asshole and act all high and mighty, but don't patronise either. There's a fine line, and it's just a matter of finding it.

Sam.

[seigfried007]

I don't think Bourbon was saying "patronize" or make 'em feel great about tripe, just that sometimes one should play more fair-handed to a sensitive-skinned individual. It's more a matter of how to show the same faults in a more diplomatic way than "Gosh, dude, that's crap. You have no talent whatsoever. Your grammar's shoddy, your plot's transparant. Go kill yourself. Right now."

For instance, making several shorter posts seems less intimidating than one marathon sermon detailing minutely every single perceived fault. Assuming that a young writer or one new to the craft knows everything about show, don't tell and minute nitpickiness of grammar is also something critters should be aware of and take precautions against.

Not kid gloves, just making extra-certain to be a fair-minded, diplomatic person in regards to ripping their work apart. And maybe even pointing out what they did well first... and in the summary, perhaps, so that it doesn't feel like a kitten's licking your hand only to clean off the spot where it's shortly going to sink its needle teeth.

Obviously, with jerks and people you know better, feel free to give them the no-holds-barred treatment because you know they can (or should be able to) take it like a champ.

[Sam Winchester]

Originally Posted by seigfried007

I don't think Bourbon was saying "patronize" or make 'em feel great about tripe, just that sometimes one should play more fair-handed to a sensitive-skinned individual. It's more a matter of how to show the same faults in a more diplomatic way than "Gosh, dude, that's crap. You have no talent whatsoever. Your grammar's shoddy, your plot's transparant. Go kill yourself. Right now."

For instance, making several shorter posts seems less intimidating than one marathon sermon detailing minutely every single perceived fault. Assuming that a young writer or one new to the craft knows everything about show, don't tell and minute nitpickiness of grammar is also something critters should be aware of and take precautions against.

Not kid gloves, just making extra-certain to be a fair-minded, diplomatic person in regards to ripping their work apart. And maybe even pointing out what they did well first... and in the summary, perhaps, so that it doesn't feel like a kitten's licking your hand only to clean off the spot where it's shortly going to sink its needle teeth.

Obviously, with jerks and people you know better, feel free to give them the no-holds-barred treatment because you know they can (or should be able to) take it like a champ.

I treat the people I'm critiquing with the same respect as I would like them to show me. I don't say, 'this is crap, go kill yourself.' I point out the problems, and suggest reasonably how they should go about fixing them. I don't claim to be a perfect critiquer, and I sure as hell don't claim to be a perfect author, but I like to think I have a good grasp of what good writing is, and I like to help people who mighn't have the same. That is the point of this forum.

Btw, if 'patronise' has been put in quotation marks because of the 's,' let me point out that that is not a mistake. That is how it is spelt in English.

Sam.

[CodeRed]

Personally, I'm grateful for any constructive critiques that I recieve - it can be fairly hard to get a response at all sometimes. I am aware that grammar isn't my strongest point, but any mistakes are made unintentionally and I have no cause for complaint if someone points them out, at least it means they took enough interest in my work to notice the errors.

I believe that the most important lesson that I have taken from posting my work, and just generally browsing the forums, is learning what and how to post.

[seigfried007]

There are two different forms of English, Sam. Americans correctly spell lots of things completely different than those in the UK. We do use "ize" instead of "ise" in many instances so before you start off with correcting my spelling (rather than giving me the benefit of the doubt for typos or calling me ignorant) you may want to check that tidbit out since I'm plainly stated as being American and not from the UK.

I only put patronize in quotes--not to correct anybody--but to quote another in my own language as a number of people had tossed the term around (yourself included) and I wanted you to know that I was referencing your earlier statements. I don't presume to corect grammar and spelling in posts, Sam. It does absolutely no good and I know that I am horribly guilty of typos and prefer that others afford me the same courtesy.

I've never read your work nor have I read your critiques nor have I even--dare I say it--bothered visiting the critique forums as of yet. I'm glad you think you're even-handed with everyone. I certainly never meant to imply you wrote the 'go kill yourself' critiques. Matter of fact, I wasn't thinking of you at all when I wrote that but merely a number of other people I've seen about the forums and people I've met on my own.

[Ilasir Maroa]

If you read the OP, you'll see that the reason he doesn't care about english grammar is because he's not an english L1 speaker. I can understand that having his english grammar corrected isn't really going to help with the version of the story written in his native language. On the other hand, it's only courtesy to the english speakers, whether native or not, to make some effort to have reasonable grammar. Even if he asks that it not be critiqued.

Now, I try when I respond (and I've only recently started posting in the prose sections again) to adress the writing as well as the story. That's my default setting if no specific questions are asked. I usually do a full on quote-response if I want to make a strong effort for a particular piece. When I was a newbie here, that's what I saw, and that's the way I learned to critique. New or not, I don't think that is a problem.

I do notice that once again, a more specific complaint has morphed into a general discussion on critiquing strategy, with no difference from the other couple hundred hiding in the archives.

This includes the usual hating about someone looking less at grammar and more at the story, even after the OP said he doesn't publish in english. Now, not putting a note sort of undermines writerdude's complaint, but not the argument. And everyone has jumped on the bandwagon about the note as well. Isn't once enough? Is an argument about critique really more interesting than going out and looking at some stories?

Not to call anyone out, but reading and responding directly to the OP might have made things a bit simpler. Repetition is great, but this has gone a bit far.

I am curious as to whether WD even bothered to keep checking this after the first four posts...

[lin]

I can't believe this whole subject of grammar has become so intense.

Roger that. This would have been my nominee for thread least like to go to extra pages, and look at it.

[Foxee]

I haven't read this whole thread, sure hope that's not a prerequisite to comment.

Just wanted to suggest that if there is something specific you want out of a critique, note that at the end of the piece. It's not hard, just pound the 'enter' key an extra couple of times and say exactly what kind of feedback you want. If you don't want proofreading, say that, too.

I'm going to get back out of the crossfire, now. Yeesh.

[Ilasir Maroa]

Originally Posted by lin

Roger that. This would have been my nominee for thread least like to go to extra pages, and look at it.

Lin, you know better than that. This is exactly the type of thread where all the busybodies want to get their word in edgewise.