Why all the obsession about grammar in the "Critique and Advice" forum?

[The Backward OX]

WriterDude and Dawnstorm are possibly at opposite ends of the writing spectrum. WriterDude may post here with no present thought of seeking publication. On the other hand, Dawnstorm’s words would seem to indicate work is about to be or has already been submitted to a publisher. Much and all as I would like to support Dawnstorm’s response, it does seem a bit unbalanced to load all that onto WriterDude at this particular time. Apples & Oranges.

[Mike C]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

Apples & Oranges.

Maybe so, but if you post work for critique you should do your level best to make it readable, and you should accept gracefully what you get. As DS suggests, if you want to know if the bit about the clown and the nun works, or if you should add something else, ask the question.

[WriterDude]

This is funny. No offense, but I thought this was a writer's forum, not a grammer checking forum. All of you clearly missed my point entirely.

Of course I know grammar. English is my second language, but I dare say I'm better at speaking and writing it than many people (especially young ones) with english as their first language.

But that's not the point. I thought this was a writer's forum, and I'm a published writer who loves writing. (Heck, the two books I've published are written in english, even.)

So let me start over. I came here because I thought this was a forum by and for writers, and the name suggests. Maybe I was wrong, but I probably just misunderstood something somewhere down the line.

I often get ideas for novels, and like a lot of other people, I want to discuss the idea with someone equally minded before I start doing some actual work. Writing a novel takes a long time, and I always have at least four or five ideas for other books going on in my head before I'm halfway through. For this reason alone, I want to be damn sure the book I'm currently writing is worth the effort of all that hard work writing it, but also good enough to justify ignoring all the other ideas while I'm writing it. Naturally, I thought coming to a writer's forum and discussing the idea with other writers would be a good idea, but clearly I was wrong. No offense, but this apparently isn't my kind of forum. If someone know of a forum where we can discuss ideas and not grammar, please let me know.

[RomanticRose]

Call me stupid if you must. But I thought grammar was a part of writing.

[Mike C]

Originally Posted by WriterDude

This is funny. No offense, but I thought this was a writer's forum, not a grammer checking forum. All of you clearly missed my point entirely.

No, we all got your point. We just thought it was invalid. If you don't want your grammar ripped apart, fix it before you post. And if there's a specific area of your story you want commented on, say so at the outset.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by The Backward OX

WriterDude and Dawnstorm are possibly at opposite ends of the writing spectrum. WriterDude may post here with no present thought of seeking publication. On the other hand, Dawnstorm’s words would seem to indicate work is about to be or has already been submitted to a publisher. Much and all as I would like to support Dawnstorm’s response, it does seem a bit unbalanced to load all that onto WriterDude at this particular time. Apples & Oranges.

I'm unpublished, and so far I've only ever submitted one story one time. To me, publishing is incidental to writing, and even if I knew without a doubt that I'd never ever get published, I still wouldn't quit, because writing is what I do.

That, and reading.

It may have been a trifle - or a couple of trifles - confusing: I'm perfectly fine with ignoring grammar mistakes (the mistakiness of which is quite up for debate, anyway, as the grammar wars indicate), if there's something else to talk about. It's just that, since grammar is a hobby of mine, it's the first thing I'd talk about if there's no indication of what else I should be talking about.

I haven't been doing many critiques lately.

My main appeal here is:

To writers:

1. Indicate what sort of comments you'd like.

To Critiquers:

2. Give the sort of comments that were asked for. (You can then add your pet grammar quibbles, too.)

To everyone:

3. Story critiques don't usually require polished language. Language critiques do.

3. a) Critiquer's corollary: If you can't get past what you think is crummy language, stay out of a story critique thread.
3. b) Writer's corollary: If you don't get any replies, go elsewhere. (If you don't indicate what you want and submit an unpolished piece, don't be surprised at the grammar nitpicks. They do stand out.)

Or, a more metaphorical summary:

If someone asks for apples, don't expect them to be grateful for oranges. They may have crates of them at home.

If you don't indicate whether you want apples or oranges (or grapes, or piano strings, or used tutus), don't expect them to guess.

[seigfried007]

LOL Dawnstorm--entirely truthful in my experience.

Thus, I think we've all figured that--much like with relationships--feedback is generally better if you state what you want from the get-go. You want something long term? A quickie in a broom closet? State it at the beginning--it avoids hurt feelings.

Posting work with no guidelines for the advisors/ciritiquers is a guaranteed way to get grammar and spelling nitpickers. Mechanical errors stick out as they read and sometimes tick off writers so much that they can't see the lush story (or, the lush story we all hoped would be there, as the case more often is) and a lot of that is because we, as writers, get offended when other people claiming to be writers post error-riddled garbage for us to critique.

[strangedaze]

In my experience, ideas are worthless until properly executed. A friend with no interest in writing recently came up to me and said he'll give me a great idea for a novel. I'd write it and then we'd split it 50/50. Sorry sunshine, it doesn't work like that. If you post a piece and I read it, all I care about is whether whatever I read worked for me. If the piece doesn't work, I'll tell you why it didn't work for me. If that reason, or part of it, has something to do with grammar, I'll tell you that. If that's something you don't want to hear, then I'm not going to even look at anything you've written.

Maybe I'm wrong and misinterpreting, but writing is about writing. I don't know why you were expecting something different.

[BOURBON]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

My main appeal here is:

To writers:

1. Indicate what sort of comments you'd like.

To Critiquers:

2. Give the sort of comments that were asked for. (You can then add your pet grammar quibbles, too.)

To everyone:

3. Story critiques don't usually require polished language. Language critiques do.

3. a) Critiquer's corollary: If you can't get past what you think is crummy language, stay out of a story critique thread.
3. b) Writer's corollary: If you don't get any replies, go elsewhere. (If you don't indicate what you want and submit an unpolished piece, don't be surprised at the grammar nitpicks. They do stand out.)

I think it would be useful for the writer to indicate their age and writing experience to date. I have no interest in causing damage to a teenager's fragile ego by giving a critique aimed at an adult or pitch a critique below a beginner's belt. Anyone agree?

PS am i going to piss people off by not posting my own work here? for my screenwork it would be innappropriate, and have only two chapters of my book under my belt and even my dog ain't reading it til draft five.

BB

[strangedaze]

Bourbon: You raise an interesting point about tailoring your crit for the demographic. I know early on I got some brutal critiques, some that made me take a hiatus. Wonder what everyone else things.

As for not posting your work, that's absolutely acceptable. Readership is always appreciated.

[omginternetlord]

As MikeC said, if you don't want people trashing your grammar then just get it right.

Also can you link to your published books?

[Prof]

This thread is wandering a bit, but in a good way. Sorry WriterDude, but grammar is a part of writing. You really can't have one without the other. What you are doing is akin to saying "I'll drive where I want to drive, road or not." Nope, driving and roads go together.

As to putting on a piece offered here what the author would like to have critiqued, that is a good idea. (And that last sentence is poor grammar.) I offered a couple of poems early on with no guidance, and got only a couple replies. From now on I'll add what I'm looking for.

Demographic info? Well, I guess it couldn't hurt, except, will people hold me to a higher standard if they know I'm a retied literature and writing professor? (i.e. He should know better.)

At the risk of repeating myself, grammar can not be separated from writing.

[Sam Winchester]

Originally Posted by strangedaze

Bourbon: You raise an interesting point about tailoring your crit for the demographic. I know early on I got some brutal critiques, some that made me take a hiatus. Wonder what everyone else things.

As for not posting your work, that's absolutely acceptable. Readership is always appreciated.

Should we restrain ourselves from posting harsh critiques to younger people? If I'm being honest, no. If the work deserves to be critiqued in that manner, than it shouldn't matter what age, race, or even sex we are. This is immaterial. What is the point in saying to a 15-year-old that the work is okay if it isn't? That just encourages said person to continue writing like that. However, if you point out the mistakes and try to help them understand why they are wrong, it will ultimately work for the better. There's an old saying: 'if you give a man a fish, he'll feed himself for a day; but if you teach him to fish he'll feed himself for a lifetime.' Mighn't equate to the topic at hand, but I thought I'd throw it in there anyway!

Sam.

[dwellerofthedeep]

Originally Posted by omginternetlord

Also can you link to your published books?

I believe WriterDude revealed that his books are published through vanity presses before, but I don't remember him linking to them at any point.

[Welshman]

Now I am new to this forum, but not new to writing and I am a wee bit surprised by the initial comment. If all you are after is someone to comment on your story then you are not truly looking to be a writer. Surely writing is a synthesis of our artistic creativity and technical skill and if we cannot deliver both we should expect criticism.

With regard to the fact that you normally write in Norwegian I would simply respond - "So?"

You chose to enter an English speaking forum and as such I would anticipate that your written English should be of a suitable standard. If it isn't then put on the tin hat and dive for the trenches.

D