StephenP2003

Is there someone on this forum who can cite their own success with Lulu?

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Shawn

It may not be good for creative fiction. But it's the best thing available when a small business needs a printed manual, or a packaged DVD, or a thick stack of fliers.

There's not really many printers that would accede to print for anything less than a bulk sale.

Also, not all grad students get their dissertation printed by Oxford, you know.

Mike C

if that were really all it took, we'd all be rich.

True, point taken, but there's a world of difference between that - usually funded by the publisher - and having to hawk your books around because no book store will touch them.

As I said, cooperatives have been around far longer than the internet. They have their uses, but only generally in local area or niche interests. And of course poetry - it seems there'll always be a smallish but brisk market for poetry chapbooks. It may change, but I doubt it. Not by much. Even if the whole world turned on to e-books tomorrow, the big publishers still have the budget and marketing to attract the best writers, pay them the most money, sell the biggest numbers and dominate the marketplace.

People cite the music industry as indicative of the future of publishing, but I think it's completely different. You get turned on to music by hearing it on the radio, having a friend say "Listen to this!", hearing a ringtone, downloading a few tracks on spec. Books aren't like that. It's unlikely you'll read a paragraph and say "That's my kind of book".

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valeca

I can. I sold over 300 copies of a novel using Lulu. The work is no longer available, though, and has been removed. 300 isn't a large number in publishing terms, but considering I did zero promotion and only one family member ever knew it was there, I consider it a success. And no, I didn't pay a single penny out of pocket to do it.

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Dan

It seems that you're implying that I and others are arguing that self-publishing is superior to coming on board with a publishing house. I don't know where you got that, because I can't envision any self-published author turning down a lucrative offer.

But, in the meantime, self-publishing is a great way to get out there. Maybe lightning will strike; maybe it won't. What's the problem?

As to your point that the average self-published author only sells 30...that's 30 more than most of us have ever sold.

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Mike C

Actually, no. I'd just find that incredibly embarrassing. I'd take traditional rejection over vanity humiliation any day.

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Dan

Then that's your choice. I'd rather take a chance that someone with stroke just happens to see it, and maybe good things will result.

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Mike C

Wouldn't you rather take the chance that you can hook an agent and a 'real' publishing deal?

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Baron

Just being realistic. It does no good to any of the writers in the group to get a reputation for publishing rubbish.

A lot of really good works will not get published through traditional means because publishing is not run as it was a few years ago. Like the music industry and all media outlets these days, it's the accountants who call the shots and sales figures mean more than good literature.

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Baron

I was fortunate, in that I was introduced to a good agent in the 70s and have stuck with that agency. These days it isn't that easy, much harder than it was then. Most publishing houses will not take unsolicited work, although there are a few who will look at it. Agents are inundated. A really promising book can slip through because the first paragraph didn't grip the agent's reader. That opening page is all important. Quite a few bestselling writers of a decade or more ago wouldn't have got through this net.

I agree that it is foolish not to take advantage of a good publishing deal but that doesn't mean that a writer can't use the internet and POD for a little autonomy. For many, I believe that it can be a starting point. For myself right now, it's a good experiment and one that can help the writers involved to get recognition.

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Dan

Explain to me why you can't self-publish while you're trying to hook an agent and a "real" publishing deal. Again, you're arguing the position that people are saying they'd choose to self-publish over a publishing deal. This isn't an either/or scenario.

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Mike C

If you self publish, and then try to shop that novel to agents, they'll reject you unread. They don't want something that's already out there, and seriously, there is a 'taint' to self-publishing - if you think I'm being snobby about it (and I am) that's nothing to the rest of the industry. Agents and publishers will assume - and not without some justification - that you're a poor writer. Sure, if you can go to them if your self-published novel has sold 5000 copies and they'll probably be interested, but the chances are tiny. I'd say slimmer than getting published traditionally.

It's the same with publishing history - if you query an agent with a new book, and state that you have four books published by Lulu (or worse, PA) it'll hardly endear you to anyone; it's not an indication that you can write, just an indication that you can produce a word count. If you're querying agents, best not mention the self-published stuff.

I tend to see things as either/or because that's how they usually work out. The writers who have drive generally go the trad route. We all share the dream, to earn a living off our writing and, tenuous as it is, the only way you can achieve that is the traditional way. The rest, the ones who self-publish, (with very, very few exceptions) will always self-publish.

I've read many reasons stated for self publishing over the years, from precious writers who refuse to be edited, writers who want to 'keep their rights' or pocket a bigger share of the sales. All of them really are nothing more than self-justification and hold no water. As I said at the outset, it's a personal opinion, but that doesn't mean it's a minority opinion. I've read enough self-published stuff, and enough manuscripts generally, and had enough experience at editing a couple of literary magazines, to know that 95% of all writing is shit. Should never see the light of day. With POD there's nothing to stop it, and because it's quick, cheap and easy it attracts the type of writer and the type of book that by any other means could never see the light of day. There may be a few gems, but with something like 6 million self-published titles available, and no quality control, how will you ever know?

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Malone

I'm totally with Mike on this one.

To me, and to most people, self publishing is like admitting defeat. If you can't write something good enough to get an agent, you suck. If you can't write something good enough to get published, then that just means you're not "sellable," which means that even if you self publish, you probably won't sell anything. Not being sellable is no big thing, it just means you're not what most readers want. The publishers are professionals at knowing what will or will not sell. Why do you thnk you're smarter or more informed than them?
Stick your manuscript in a drawer somewhere, and maybe it will be found when you're dead and make you post-humuously famous.
Better than admitting you suck so much you have to pay just to get yourself "out there."

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Baron

Malone, where is the frontier spirit? I have to confess that I still hold to the sixties ideology of breaking free from the establishment wherever possible. A few talented people working together with the power of the internet, POD and integrity about producing quality work can, I believe, make an impact. I'm not sure that I would be too much in favour of go-it-alone self publishing but I'm certainly in support of groups of writers combining forces to produce something that doesn't come under the restraints of traditional publishing.

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Malone

I like to dream about that, finding talented writers and making them famous and if not wealthy, at least comfortable, by exposing them and getting them published or publishing them myself, but it just doens't seem realistic.

I agree it would be great if writers could start their own publishing company or something like that, but I just don't see it meeting great success if they couldn't get published by the big houses that manage to make money.

I guess I'm just a selfish enough person that I see no reason to publish other than to make money. I'm perfectly happy writing a novel or short story, getting some feedback on it in writing groups, maybe sharing it with friends, then throwing it in the desk drawer.

At two cents a word or whatever the average is for a published novel, the writing alone is work enough without spending more energy trying to get an agent and get published.

But if other people want to publish their own writing, it doesn't hurt me. I was just sharing my personal opinion in the last post.

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