Question about a plot idea - Writers Forum

QuothTheRaven · 12-31-2007, 11:28 PM

This is more of a request for advice than workshopping, but since my last thread, which was also a request for advice, was moved here, I guess I'll post this here as well.

I wanted to know if this is a wildly unoriginal idea. I don't read as much modern fantasy as I would like to (because honestly, I find that a lot of it is a bore and a rip-off of Tolkein), so it's possible that this idea has already been used and reused. I'm sure it's not an original idea, but it would be nice if nothing TOO similar has been used.

Disclaimer: I am not religious, this story is not going to be propaganda for any religion, though it will contain criticism of the major modern religions and commentary on what I think is 'good,' and what I believe a god, if one exists, would want from humanity. Christian Mythology is used as a backdrop for the story because I want symbols that are familiar (so that I can turn them on their heads ;P).

Here's the idea:

God is angered by the corruption on earth. He sends a Seraph (haven't chosen a name) to earth to destroy Hell, which is in the hearts and minds of humans--a twist on the battle between heaven and hell. The Seraph is on his own, he must decide for himself where Hell lies and fight to destroy it. He masquerades as a human for a time, and discovers the effects of drugs. Disgusted that humans attempt to shield themselves from the negative parts of life and only get the positive parts by drugging themselves, the Seraph decides that drugs are one of the sources of Hell in mankind. He wages a war against the world of mind-numbing drugs, showing no mercy and destroying those that use and distribute drugs.

So, any thoughts on the idea?

Kaykobina · 01-01-2008, 01:21 AM

I think the idea is pretty good. I do remember seeing or reading something along similar lines I think, but I can't remember (of course, now when I want to) what or where.

It doesn't matter anyways...what matters is what you make of the story.

With him being an angel, he would probably have a different view of humans from the outset than we do of ourselves. His perception, priorities, methods and reasoning would be different, because he's coming from a place that thinks in the infinite, not the finite, from the spiritual, not the physical.
I don't think he would just limit himself to drugs...he would have to take on issues that contribute to drug abuse, such as childhood abuse, etc. Politics (funding, rehab centres, education, targeted destruction of certain neighbourhoods, drug wars, etc.), materialism, broken families, lack of faith and nothing to fill the void, etc.
Hey - you have a new super-hero series.

Vee · 01-01-2008, 02:09 AM

He sounds like Chopper Read.

QuothTheRaven · 01-01-2008, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaykobina

I think the idea is pretty good. I do remember seeing or reading something along similar lines I think, but I can't remember (of course, now when I want to) what or where.

It doesn't matter anyways...what matters is what you make of the story.

With him being an angel, he would probably have a different view of humans from the outset than we do of ourselves. His perception, priorities, methods and reasoning would be different, because he's coming from a place that thinks in the infinite, not the finite, from the spiritual, not the physical.
I don't think he would just limit himself to drugs...he would have to take on issues that contribute to drug abuse, such as childhood abuse, etc. Politics (funding, rehab centres, education, targeted destruction of certain neighbourhoods, drug wars, etc.), materialism, broken families, lack of faith and nothing to fill the void, etc.
Hey - you have a new super-hero series.

Well, drugs are a personal hate of mine (I've never done any illegal drugs--drug user turned drug hater would be too cliche ;P).

While I recognize that there are undoubtedly times when we need help to get through things, or mental illnesses that require medication to allow one to function; I think that people use drugs to numb themselves out when things don't go their way. You hear about people using anti-depressants, for example, when losing a child or loved one. You also hear about people 'self-medicating' (nice buzz word, didn't we simply call them crackheads in the past?). Why do we want to blur out the negative and live in a euphoric stupor? It disgusts me.

If you want to live, then you have to take the good with the bad, but people these days just want a quick fix. As Roger Waters wrote, they want to become "comfortably numb." Or, as Jerry Cantrell wrote, we've become a "chemical tribe/don't really care if we live or die." I think that this medicated life really is a large part of the problem with the world, especially the USA (Note: I'm not hating on the US here. My point of view comes from living in the US, I can't really comment about other countries since I've never lived anywhere else that I remember--but I'm sure that things are pretty much the same across the world).

Definitely not a superhero. The character would be an antihero at best. I'd compare him to Spawn, actually. He shows no mercy, and he stands for justice more than for goodness--not a turn-the-other-cheek kind of character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vee

He sounds like Chopper Read.

Could you elaborate on that? I looked at the Wikipedia article and it's about some former-criminal that writes crime novels and writes/performs rap.

[EDIT: Oh, I see, he started off by going after drug dealers and drug lords, etc. Interesting, but I don't think that there will be much of a similarity.

By the way, happy new year everyone. Sorry about the crappy writing, I need sleep.]

[EDIT2: Oh god, I read some more about this Chopper Read guy and looked up some photos. Is this guy for real? Some of the stuff about him in Wikipedia sounds like a bad book and in his photos, the guy looks like a complete joke.]

Kaykobina · 01-01-2008, 05:20 AM

All the good "bad guys" had compassion, Quoth. And compassion will make you look past the facade, has nothing to do with turning the other cheek. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you would like to see it, and it might make for shallow black and white characters. If that's the style and direction you're going for, it could work of course.
Just try it - why are you even asking? Even if it's been done, whatever you write will be unique anyhow.

QuothTheRaven · 01-01-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaykobina

All the good "bad guys" had compassion, Quoth. And compassion will make you look past the facade, has nothing to do with turning the other cheek. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you would like to see it, and it might make for shallow black and white characters. If that's the style and direction you're going for, it could work of course.
Just try it - why are you even asking? Even if it's been done, whatever you write will be unique anyhow.

Because if something has already been done well, I would be a fool to try to redo it. There's nothing good about using someone else's plot. Unless you're Shakespeare, of course--but I'm definitely not Shakespeare.

Kaykobina · 01-01-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuothTheRaven

Because if something has already been done well, I would be a fool to try to redo it. There's nothing good about using someone else's plot. Unless you're Shakespeare, of course--but I'm definitely not Shakespeare.

Lol...yeah, but it wouldn't be somebody elses plot, it would be yours... you're not copying anyone by having an idea and working it. If you take someone elses work, and try to write it in your own words, or improve on it then... but you're not doing that. So sorry, I can't follow your train of thought.
Shakespeare didn't know he was "Shakespeare" either..
And Rowling wrote and didn't give a hoot, so did Tolkien, and that is an overdone field... I still think it's what you make of it. Of course, and shoot me down now, but if your ego is holding you back, telling you either you be the best or not at all, then that is something you have to deal with...egos like to lie, because it'll also tell you you're the best when you suck.

But whatever, JMHO

QuothTheRaven · 01-01-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaykobina

Lol...yeah, but it wouldn't be somebody elses plot, it would be yours... you're not copying anyone by having an idea and working it. If you take someone elses work, and try to write it in your own words, or improve on it then... but you're not doing that. So sorry, I can't follow your train of thought.
Shakespeare didn't know he was "Shakespeare" either..
And Rowling wrote and didn't give a hoot, so did Tolkien, and that is an overdone field... I still think it's what you make of it. Of course, and shoot me down now, but if your ego is holding you back, telling you either you be the best or not at all, then that is something you have to deal with...egos like to lie, because it'll tell you you're the best when you suck.

But whatever, JMHO

What if I told you that I want to write a story about a billionaire that dresses up like a giant bat and fights crime? Or maybe a man that made a deal with the devil to allow him to come back to earth but now he has to serve as the devil's soldier, which he doesn't want to do, so instead he fights crime and corruption and the devils forces, who are trying to make him serve the devil. Would you see a problem with those ideas?

Now what if I write this story about an angel being sent to earth to fight evil, and someone else has written something with the EXACT same idea? Would you see a problem there? Even if I knew that I didn't plagiarize the other writers idea, would anyone else know that? The purpose of this thread is to ask people that have undoubtedly read different things than I have read, and many that are probably older and have read a lot more different works by different authors, if they think my idea sounds too much like any other idea that they may have heard of.

I have no idea what you mean by "Shakespeare didn't know he was 'Shakespeare,'" care to explain? I'm sure that he knew his last name. In case you didn't know, many of Shakespeare's plots came from other sources, which was totally acceptable at the time. The magic of Shakespeare's work isn't in their originality or the basics of the plots, it is in how beautifully he wrote them.

You do know that The Hobbit was written in 1936 and Lord of the Rings was published in 1954 and 1955, right? It wasn't overdone at that time, much of the fantasy that came after it was just mimicry though. Tolkien basically created the high fantasy genre that thousands of people now write and read. I'm not saying that the fantasy writing that came after Tolkien all sucked or anything, but much of it used archetypes and ideas from Tokien's work (a lot of which, in turn, came from Norse Mythology). Although Rowling's work does use a lot of ideas from previous fantasy, her base idea was still original, I don't know of any other book about a school for witch and wizard children--feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I am also pretty certain that most good authors research any idea that they have to make sure that others have not written anything too similar. And if there IS something similar to my idea here, it's not a total loss, I could use that knowledge to make sure that the story that I write ISN'T too similar to anything that came before it. If I wanted to write about hell, don't you think it would be a good idea to read the Inferno first? If I wanted to write about the rebellion of the angels, don't you think it would be a good idea to read the Book of Enoch and Steven Brust's To Reign in Hell, along with the vast body of other writing on the subject?

And I'm not sure why you're trying to bring my ego into this. It would be a lot more egotistical for me to write something and assume it's original than to ask around and see if anything similar is already written. Furthermore, first you said that my ego is holding me back, then you said something about it telling me that I'm the best "or not at all," which makes no sense. I don't really get what you're on about, I haven't claimed to be the best and I haven't said that I suck. If you don't understand why I'm asking about this, it's probably best that you just stop posting in this thread, because you're not helping at all.

Kaykobina · 01-02-2008, 04:06 AM

Wow...you really have a way of talking to people. I've read some of your other responses to others as well, and immaturity, rudeness and anger management doesn't even begin to describe it. You should know best how your words come across.

Deal - you stay out of my threads, and I stay out of yours. I will not argue. You asked for advice/opinion, you got it.

Sorry it wasn't according to your desires, but then I guess you're right. Don't do it.

Destroyer · 01-02-2008, 04:35 AM

Thing is, is he going to realise that there are drugs that help people instead of destroying them, like medicines and that? Or is he going to go trashing hospitals and pharcmacies just because they have a lot of painkillers? It's a valid question. He hasn't lived amongst humans for long so he might not see the reality of these particular drugs. He may have only seen addicts and dealers.

JohnN · 01-02-2008, 04:44 AM

Hmm, story doesn't sound too bad but then I am not a fantasy person. Its how you write the story that counts. A quick synopsis will never be enough to evaluate a story in my opinion.

QuothTheRaven · 01-02-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destroyer

Thing is, is he going to realise that there are drugs that help people instead of destroying them, like medicines and that? Or is he going to go trashing hospitals and pharcmacies just because they have a lot of painkillers? It's a valid question. He hasn't lived amongst humans for long so he might not see the reality of these particular drugs. He may have only seen addicts and dealers.

That's a good question, I haven't thought about it. I haven't really thought much about this story yet, I have 2 other stories (one is probably more book-size) that are more important than this one, so they're the ones that are on my mind. Ultimately, I intend to use this as a platform for presenting my own ideas about drugs and other topics, so I don't know how it will turn out. Will I have the Seraph grow and develop, or will I forgo character development and start him off with my opinions on the various issues and stick with them. Not sure.

QuothTheRaven · 01-02-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnN

Hmm, story doesn't sound too bad but then I am not a fantasy person. Its how you write the story that counts. A quick synopsis will never be enough to evaluate a story in my opinion.

I know what you mean. This isn't even a synopsis, it's just the idea. I'm wary of posting any of my ideas on this site (or any others), as plagiarism is rampant.

judes · 01-02-2008, 03:57 PM

Your story reads like a preachy religious comic that tries to be on the edge but falls short. Even though you say that the story is not overly religious, you still maintain that you will present your opinion on Christianity. Also the whole concept of an angel presenting a war on drugs is a bit ridiculous and similarly, it reeks of preaching your own thoughts about drugs being an escape route and a shield. Like other people have mentioned before, would an angel whose origins are completely different from humans, after a short time masquerading as a human, have the same experiences and relationships with drugs like the humans (who are aware of their own mortality and sin and suffering and all that) do? Why would he suddenly decide that this is part of the cause of all human suffering and sin? It simply does not make sense that the angel would find the alternative reality that humans choose to live in as the "evil" that he needs to target rather than focusing on the root of the evil of whatever is causing hell on earth.

It's also amusing to me that you write that using drugs only gives you the positive benefits of life rather than facing the negatives. Because as we all know, drugs only make people happy and have no harmful side effects.

God sending an angel to earth as someone who does his bidding can be seen in the fantasy genre. What it strongly reminds me of is His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman. That trilogy also has a tendency to be preachy especially near the end when God is involved and the author's atheism is clear, but there were some concepts in it that were more original than other fantasy books on the market.

mwd · 01-02-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuothTheRaven

Well, drugs are a personal hate of mine (I've never done any illegal drugs--drug user turned drug hater would be too cliche ;P).

While I recognize that there are undoubtedly times when we need help to get through things, or mental illnesses that require medication to allow one to function; I think that people use drugs to numb themselves out when things don't go their way. You hear about people using anti-depressants, for example, when losing a child or loved one. You also hear about people 'self-medicating' (nice buzz word, didn't we simply call them crackheads in the past?). Why do we want to blur out the negative and live in a euphoric stupor? It disgusts me.

You sound like you've been watching too many government-funded anti-drug commercials, or just bought the collector's edition DVD of Requiem for a Dream and have been playing it on repeat, or something. Sure, drug users can be shallow and mindless pleasure-seekers, but so can anyone else. Stories told from the soapbox make, almost without exception, for awful, mind-numbing fiction.

This is especially true coming from an authour with no actual experience with narcotics. It just comes across as naive at best and hypocritical at worst. Not that I'm saying you should go take drugs, but simply that if you're serious about doing this, I think you should look for some honest, non-preachy accounts of first-hand drug use and addiction. It's never seemed as simple to me as you describe. I remember reading "A Scanner Darkly" by Philip K. Dick, which is an excellent novel in that vein, especially if you like science fiction. In particular, he has an authour's note at the end which is honest and insightful, and places no blame.

When it comes to moral/philosophical issues like this, I think to write the story the way you describe would belittle the issue by simplifying it to propaganda.