Question about a plot idea - Page 2 - Writers Forum

AngelinaXXX · 01-02-2008, 04:57 PM

I like the idea depending on how you attack it. Do you intend to make it funny like Pratchett or deathly serious like Irving Welsh? I would also consider widening it aswell not just drugs but perhaps alcohol (and if it is a comedy chocolate/hamburgers?) or even make it the 7 deadly sins. However you decide to proceed, sounds original to me.

QuothTheRaven · 01-03-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judes

Your story reads like a preachy religious comic that tries to be on the edge but falls short. Even though you say that the story is not overly religious, you still maintain that you will present your opinion on Christianity. Also the whole concept of an angel presenting a war on drugs is a bit ridiculous and similarly, it reeks of preaching your own thoughts about drugs being an escape route and a shield. Like other people have mentioned before, would an angel whose origins are completely different from humans, after a short time masquerading as a human, have the same experiences and relationships with drugs like the humans (who are aware of their own mortality and sin and suffering and all that) do? Why would he suddenly decide that this is part of the cause of all human suffering and sin? It simply does not make sense that the angel would find the alternative reality that humans choose to live in as the "evil" that he needs to target rather than focusing on the root of the evil of whatever is causing hell on earth.

It's also amusing to me that you write that using drugs only gives you the positive benefits of life rather than facing the negatives. Because as we all know, drugs only make people happy and have no harmful side effects.

God sending an angel to earth as someone who does his bidding can be seen in the fantasy genre. What it strongly reminds me of is His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman. That trilogy also has a tendency to be preachy especially near the end when God is involved and the author's atheism is clear, but there were some concepts in it that were more original than other fantasy books on the market.

OK, for starters, I asked if anyone knew of a story that sounded similar to my idea. I didn't ask for people to criticize my idea. None of you know how I will write it or what exactly will happen because I don't even know that, so your criticisms are severely premature. Don't assume that I will preach, I represent and subscribe to no religion. I have my own ideas on what is right and what is good, and though I'm sure that many religions would agree with my ideals, I'm sure that many others would not. For example, I will probably start the story with the angel arguing with God, because in my opinion, people should question their religions, not follow blindly like sheep going to the slaughter. Ooo, now I want to listen to Pink Floyd's Sheep.

You started by saying that my "story reads like a preachy religious comic that tries to be on the edge but falls short." My story reads like something? Which story? Where can I read this story? I haven't written it yet, so how do you know what it reads like?

The story will not be religious at all, because I am not religious at all. I am Jewish by birth, but I have only been to a synagogue once in my life. I didn't say that I would present my views on Christianity, I said that it will criticize all of the major modern religions. I will present my views on what I believe is righteous and good, based on years of studying philosophy and reading.

You seem to be assuming that writers don't present their personal views in their books--wrong. Any book that doesn't contain a message is hollow and not worth reading. A message would logically be the author's opinion on some topic, since he or she certainly won't write a book about an opinion or view that he or she doesn't believe. That is called layering in a literary work, and any good writer writes things in layers. There is a story, there are a variety of views and opinions expressed, and then there's a main point--something that the writer wants to convey beyond just an interesting story.

Drugs certainly have negative effects, but why do people use drugs? To get that negative effect? People just want to feel miserable, so they take drugs to make their pain/suffering go away? People use drugs to feel good, the same reason that they drink alcohol, the negative effects of drugs are side/after effects, and many drug users keep using the drug to avoid the immediate negative effects. Have you ever heard that if you have a bit to drink in the morning if you're hung over, the hangover will go away? Same idea.

Yes, I'm sure that there are many books/stories about god sending an angel to earth for some purpose. The film Dogma springs to mind, and there is some Christmas movie that I've seen a bit of where some Christmas angel is sent to earth to help some little girl. There are also tons of books about elves, dwarves, dragons, etc; that doesn't mean that another book about the aforementioned is necessarily unoriginal. So are you telling me that the idea is unoriginal because there have been other books/stories about angels coming to earth, or are you trying to say that this question is pointless because that doesn't necessarily mean that another book about that would be unoriginal? I wasn't looking for someone to tell me that there are other works about angels coming being sent to earth--I know there are; I was looking for something a bit more similar than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwd

You sound like you've been watching too many government-funded anti-drug commercials, or just bought the collector's edition DVD of Requiem for a Dream and have been playing it on repeat, or something. Sure, drug users can be shallow and mindless pleasure-seekers, but so can anyone else. Stories told from the soapbox make, almost without exception, for awful, mind-numbing fiction.

This is especially true coming from an authour with no actual experience with narcotics. It just comes across as naive at best and hypocritical at worst. Not that I'm saying you should go take drugs, but simply that if you're serious about doing this, I think you should look for some honest, non-preachy accounts of first-hand drug use and addiction. It's never seemed as simple to me as you describe. I remember reading "A Scanner Darkly" by Philip K. Dick, which is an excellent novel in that vein, especially if you like science fiction. In particular, he has an authour's note at the end which is honest and insightful, and places no blame.

When it comes to moral/philosophical issues like this, I think to write the story the way you describe would belittle the issue by simplifying it to propaganda.

Many of the same comments that I made to judes apply to your post as well. I haven't written anything and I have just barely described the very, very, very bare bones of an idea that I have only thought about a little bit.

I achieved a hate for drugs on my own, thank you very much, and it's a view that I think should be shared universally, the world would be a better place.

I have no intention of preaching or telling the story from a soap box, I intend to write a story with depth by exploring an issue that plagues the modern world. Believe me, I'm not so terrible of a writer that I will extravasate the issue at the expense of writing a good story. I will think about the issue extensively and read what others have to say about it (philisophers and yes--people with first-hand experience) before I start discussing it. Even as I see it now, it's not one dimensional.

I only wrote 8 lines about the idea, a total of 2 of them actually saying anything about my position on the topic. Do you really think that that's enough of a basis for you to criticize my view and/or how I will present it?

I appreciate the referral to the Philip K. Dick novel, I've read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I value the input of everyone that's tried to give helpful insight, butwhat you guys seem to be doing, to make an analogy, is judging a book based on the author's name. I provided a very, very scant description of an idea just to find out if something very similar has been written and you guys are already judging the whole idea and the story that may or may not come from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelinaXXX

I like the idea depending on how you attack it. Do you intend to make it funny like Pratchett or deathly serious like Irving Welsh? I would also consider widening it aswell not just drugs but perhaps alcohol (and if it is a comedy chocolate/hamburgers?) or even make it the 7 deadly sins. However you decide to proceed, sounds original to me.

I really have no idea at all yet. I don't think that it will be funny, because comedy is harder to write than serious work. I intend to write something serious and a bit philosophical. The seven deadly sins are a Christian idea and I don't necessarily agree that they are all incontrovertibly bad. All of the 7 deadly sins are necessary at times.

Destroyer · 01-04-2008, 03:57 AM

Technically angels are a Christian idea, so it would make sense that they would be against the seven sins.

Mike C · 01-08-2008, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuothTheRaven

Drugs certainly have negative effects, but why do people use drugs?

I achieved a hate for drugs on my own, thank you very much, and it's a view that I think should be shared universally, the world would be a better place.

There are dozens of stories about angels being sent to earth to rid it of whichever ill the author thinks god doesn't like. And no, off the top of my head I can't guide you towards any.

I know you don't like your idea being criticised, but I will offer a comment anyway. You're writing about a subject you appear to have very little knowledge about. The idea for the story that you're presenting appears to be dreadfully moralistic in tone, and, while authors often incorporate their own world-view and feelings into their work, most use a little balance and in general books with an overly moralistic message (unless they happen to reflect the zeitgeist) don't sell.

Vee · 01-12-2008, 04:31 AM

To summarise: You've asked what people thought of the idea, they said they think it may be a little too preachy.

You've responded fairly in that they can't say that until its been written and most stories carry a message of some kind.

As for myself I have noticed most stories carry multiple messages, some the author never intended but it is something that you can see within the story.

QuothTheRaven · 01-27-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike C

There are dozens of stories about angels being sent to earth to rid it of whichever ill the author thinks god doesn't like. And no, off the top of my head I can't guide you towards any.

I know you don't like your idea being criticised, but I will offer a comment anyway. You're writing about a subject you appear to have very little knowledge about. The idea for the story that you're presenting appears to be dreadfully moralistic in tone, and, while authors often incorporate their own world-view and feelings into their work, most use a little balance and in general books with an overly moralistic message (unless they happen to reflect the zeitgeist) don't sell.

I don't mind criticism at all, but when people start criticizing something that hasn't been written, I get annoyed. For example: "Your story reads like a preachy religious comic that tries to be on the edge but falls short." People posted detailed critiques of how my story is preachy, etc, yet I haven't written it. It's just an idea. I promise that if I write this, I will be delicate about it and won't preach. The primary preaching would probably just be in brief snippets where the angel explains and/or justifies what it is doing. And considering that representatives of a religion generally preach, I think it would be quite fair for an angel to do a small amount of preaching.

Anyway, like most of my ideas, this probably won't even come to fruition.

ClancyBoy · 01-28-2008, 08:17 AM

Sounds a lot like Spawn, actually.

You should still do it though.

slayerofangels · 01-28-2008, 09:39 AM

I dunno, spawn came upwards from hell, and his only job was to kill. Of course he went and made it all overly complicated after that...

Industrial · 01-28-2008, 12:09 PM

heh. For the most part on this thread you reply to criticism with the statement that you were simply asking if the story was similar to another. Yet you also at several points ask for opinions and it seems your completely eager to share your opinions on the matter but would rather not hear an opinion that differs from your own. I think because of expressing your opinion you opened it up to other opinions.

1. Let me say that though you are entitled to you own opinion, in most opinionated works and satires(I know this is not meant to be an opinionated work, though because of the content and subject it comes into play), the author works by expressing both sides of an opinion and then explaining why there's is better. With that said, I think you completely fail to acknowledge that anyone else's opinion about drugs could be right, if it differs from you own. Fanaticism is a word I could use to describe your views on this matter.

2. Concerning drugs. You seem to stereotype all drug users by saying they seek only to live life in a euphoric state and ignore the negative aspects of life, and that is something that disgusts you. In a black and white situation like that I would completely agree with you, that would also disgust me. But drug use is not as black and white as you see it. Contrary to whatever opinion you have formed some drug users including myself, don't use drugs to escape negative problems. An example to bring this to light for you would be Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock Holmes in several stories uses cocaine simply because he enjoys the feeling. You also state that drug use is a way to gain a euphoric state of life. This is incorrect in the highest sense, because there are MANY negative implications of drug use, they are both physically, socially, and mentally destructive. In using a stereotype to fuel your opinion on drug users, it makes your opinion seem very hypocritical and naive as mentioned above. Things are not allways black and white and what seems important to you might not be as important to others. Your whole concept of drugs as evil is misplaced I think. Look at countries such as Amsterdam, where Marijuana is legal. Crime rate is significantly lower and I think you are associating negative connotations with drugs that are wrong. Alot of the evil you associate with drugs can be traced to the criminal activity that goes along with drugs in the U.S.

3. I find your whole argument on reusing a already mastered plot hypocritical. This is because you state the benefits that arose from Shakespeare reusing plot, yet you still hold the belief that nothing good can come from reusing plot.

I cant even continue to critique on this because of your use of stereotypes makes you no better then a racist who would only consider their opinion.

Industrial · 01-28-2008, 12:10 PM

Sorry double post.

Louisos · 02-02-2008, 03:35 PM

i personally think the idea is solid however a concentration on drugs would be detrimental to the fairly original plot. I would focus on other less obvious sins that would be more suprising for readers- an idea could be gift shops in cathedrals (jesus over turnings the merchants tables in the church) slightly less cliche stuff.