Languages in my historical fantasy.....using english instead of the actual language - Writers Forum

Silverbackman · 12-12-2007, 04:53 PM

I am currently brainstorming ideas for a historical fantasy novel that takes place in a kingdom recently conquered by the Roman Empire but also sought by the Persian Empire. Since this is a newly conquered Roman province, they speak latin of course, or I may keep latin separate as a foreign language and use the language of the conquered kingdom. Either way I'm planning on replacing the main character's language with english of course, because I don't know latin and people reading this book will most likely not understand latin. And of course this is an english novel. But is this generally accepted in historical literature? It's a lot easier to make a historical fiction about only one civilization since they never have to bring up the issue about language. But since I'm going to use actual foreign languages for the civilizations foreign to the civilization of the characters, will it appear odd?

For example, let's say my characters are in a Persian market and the Persian merchant states that he speaks latin. Latin in this case will be english, but won't it appear odd to readers that the latin the merchant refers to is actually english? How do historical fiction authors handle the issue of using english as a substitute for the foreign language of the characters? In movies; replacing the ancient languages (such as greek or latin) with english is common place, but I'm not sure about historical fiction as I am limited in the amount of fiction books I have read.

Edit: After looking through some other threads with draft chapters in each thread, I may have posted in the wrong forum. I apologize for this and mods can move this to the appropriate board if necessary.

Hawke · 12-12-2007, 05:34 PM

** Moderator's note: moved from Fiction **

Ilasir Maroa · 12-12-2007, 07:22 PM

Historical fiction is not generally considered a category of fantasy. Also, is this a real kingdom? What research have you done on the topic? For instance, what historical language would the people in the conquered province use?

The real thing to consider in reference to your question is whether this can be handled by some dialect, and a few choice Latin phrases. Usng Latin in general will not work, because no-one reading this book is likely to be fluent enough to undertsand a real conversation. I think that the best way is to pick one language, or use dialects of english to represent different language backgrounds.

ClancyBoy · 12-12-2007, 07:53 PM

You don't have to take your cues from historical fiction. There are plently of modern-day books and movies that handle different languages without being too distruptive.

For example, in the scene in Lawrence of Arabia when T.E. Lawrence is captured and interrogated by the Turkish officer, he addresses the officer as "efendi" several times, indicating that he is actually speaking Turkish.

In your book you have two languages, am I right? Ancient Persian and Latin. In most cases when languages come into contact in this way via conquest the conquering language becomes the "prestige" language and the local language remains the language of the common people.

You can use existing registers of English to convey this difference. Have the Latin-speaking Romans speak in an elevated style, omitting contractions and using Latin titles of rank like Imperator, Consul, Praetor, Quaestor, Promagistrate, Aedile, Tribune, Censor, and Governor.

As to how to handle the Ancient Persian, that's up to you. Do you want it to be a language of street urchins and carpet merchants or as another kind of noble language? If the former, you can use some neutral lower register of English, like Tolkien used for the trolls in The Hobbit.

I checked Wikipedia but they don't seem to have a page on ancient Persian, only modern Persian. So you'll probably have to do some research.

Silverbackman · 12-13-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Historical fiction is not generally considered a category of fantasy. Also, is this a real kingdom? What research have you done on the topic? For instance, what historical language would the people in the conquered province use?

There will be some fantasy elements because I'm going to incorporate beasts and supernatural-type entities from different ancient myths. It's going to have somewhat of a fantasy LOTR type feel to it (sort of), except it will take place in our world. The kingdom is Dacia after Emperor Trajan conquers it.

Quote:

The real thing to consider in reference to your question is whether this can be handled by some dialect, and a few choice Latin phrases. Usng Latin in general will not work, because no-one reading this book is likely to be fluent enough to undertsand a real conversation. I think that the best way is to pick one language, or use dialects of english to represent different language backgrounds.

Do you suggest I use dialect for every language or just the ones used in Rome? I'm not sure whether I can do this for every civilization in the book. The story mainly takes place in Rome and Persia, but it also extends into Han China and other parts of the ancient world who have little contact with latin.

Quote:

In your book you have two languages, am I right? Ancient Persian and Latin. In most cases when languages come into contact in this way via conquest the conquering language becomes the "prestige" language and the local language remains the language of the common people.

Rome and Persia will be the two main empires that threaten the remnants of the old kingdom of Dacia, but the Dacians will travel all over the old world. Actually I'm thinking of even having some small parts in the new world on the Yucatan peninsula. So there will be a lot of characters and talking from these distant lands.

Quote:

I checked Wikipedia but they don't seem to have a page on ancient Persian, only modern Persian. So you'll probably have to do some research.

I was actually thinking of just using modern Persian.......will it matter? Will there be a lot of criticism if the modern languages are used? Most people wouldn't be able to tell I assume.

Quote:

You can use existing registers of English to convey this difference. Have the Latin-speaking Romans speak in an elevated style, omitting contractions and using Latin titles of rank like Imperator, Consul, Praetor, Quaestor, Promagistrate, Aedile, Tribune, Censor, and Governor.

As to how to handle the Ancient Persian, that's up to you. Do you want it to be a language of street urchins and carpet merchants or as another kind of noble language? If the former, you can use some neutral lower register of English, like Tolkien used for the trolls in The Hobbit.

That's what I was thinking too. The Dacian language would be closest to Romanian so their dialect of english "latin" would probably sound something similar to a Romanian accent or something southeastern european.

ClancyBoy · 12-13-2007, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverbackman

Do you suggest I use dialect for every language or just the ones used in Rome? I'm not sure whether I can do this for every civilization in the book. The story mainly takes place in Rome and Persia, but it also extends into Han China and other parts of the ancient world who have little contact with latin.

I would say use different registers and dialects whenever you think there's an important distinction to be made. If your Dacians go to the Yucatan, how do you imagine the speech of the natives sound to them? How can you convey that difference to an English-speaking reader?

Quote:

I was actually thinking of just using modern Persian.......will it matter? Will there be a lot of criticism if the modern languages are used? Most people wouldn't be able to tell I assume.

If you write about antiquity, you will attract readers who are interested in antiquity and might very possibly know something about it. If you fudge it, people will notice.

I bought the books The Diamond Age and China Mountain Zhang because they're about China, and I'm really into China. After a few chapters though I realized these two authors hadn't done very thorough research and were (to put it politely) talking out of their asses. As a result I hate both of these books, and by extention, the authors.

If you take your Dacians to "Han" China, and I get hold of it, I will be watching you like a hawk for accuracy. For starters you should know that the late Roman period is more or less concurrent with the Tang dynasty, not the Han.

Ilasir Maroa · 12-13-2007, 01:41 AM

Have you considered that it might be a little unbelievable fpr your characters to understand all these languages? I mean, there was almost no contact between the Roman Empire and the Yucutan penninsula. Do you have a plausible reason for this seeming ease of translation? You mention that many of these lands have little contact with Latin, which leads me to wonder how they will be able to communicate with dacians in any language a dacian might know.

As to using modern Persian... I would certainly be severely disappointed as a reader if you made such an insult to my intelligence. I would be very careful on trying to pull off such deceptions if I were you.

Silverbackman · 12-13-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

I would say use different registers and dialects whenever you think there's an important distinction to be made. If your Dacians go to the Yucatan, how do you imagine the speech of the natives sound to them? How can you convey that difference to an English-speaking reader?

But should I always use dialects? I was thinking for far away civilizations like China there will be maybe a few people that speak latin but most of the encounters here will be translations from the few Chinese people that were taught latin. For the contact with the Yucatan, the party who arrives there will start out not knowing the languages of the Mayans obviously and vice versa, since there was no contact between the old world and the new world.

Quote:

If you write about antiquity, you will attract readers who are interested in antiquity and might very possibly know something about it. If you fudge it, people will notice.

I bought the books The Diamond Age and China Mountain Zhang because they're about China, and I'm really into China. After a few chapters though I realized these two authors hadn't done very thorough research and were (to put it politely) talking out of their asses. As a result I hate both of these books, and by extention, the authors.

Yea I am sort of worried about people coming down hard on 100% historical accuracy, because there will be a lot of fantasy elements. There will be a lot of fictional characters that didn't exist in history (such as the son or daughter of the last king of Dacia: King Dacebalus). There will be obviously many characters from that period such as the primary antagonist: Emperor Trajan of Rome. Emperor Trajan himself will have some supernatural powers which adds more of a fantasy feel to it.

An example of what I am saying would be like the movie Gladiator as far as characters go. There will be some historical characters such as Commodes in the movie.......obviously Maximus never existed. The fantasy element can be compared to the comic and film 300, where there are many beasts that obviously Xerxes never had. Xerxes himself is more mythical in his appearance as a powerful giant-like figure. There may also be some mythical dungeon-like structures that the characters have to go through to achieve a certain goal where they will encounter mythical beings from the legends of the certain cultures they visit.

I am even planning on adding some mythical lands and races that many civilizations assumed exist.....Aristotle for example predicted many mythical non-human races in the deep north or the deep south. I'm also going to have some important female characters in it, despite the fact that the status of women prevented them from doing important things....even in literature (but I couldn't bare just having a story of just men doing everything).

While I much rather have this story take place in our world, if there will be heavy criticism because of all the additional fantasy aspects to the story as well as the fictional characters and events......I might as well create a fantasy land with similar civilizations in it or something. But I would much rather it take place in this world.

Quote:

If you take your Dacians to "Han" China, and I get hold of it, I will be watching you like a hawk for accuracy. For starters you should know that the late Roman period is more or less concurrent with the Tang dynasty, not the Han.

Late Roman history never actually extended into Tang......the Tang formed in the 600s CE. Han China (ends 220 CE) was still in power during the reign of Emperor Trajan and during the time of the conquest of Dacia (around 100 CE).

Now that you bring it up, I do want to point out that this will be as accurate according to the events that happened. A lot of the historical battles will take place, but I will be adding a lot more. In some ways this will be an alternative history......but it will end up ending as it did in history (ie Trajan will die after his campaign in the East as he did in real life). But there will be for example troops from China helping the Dacian resistance in in Armenia and Dacia itself (there was no Dacian resistance, this will be fictional....as well as Chinese support).

Quote:

Have you considered that it might be a little unbelievable fpr your characters to understand all these languages? I mean, there was almost no contact between the Roman Empire and the Yucutan penninsula. Do you have a plausible reason for this seeming ease of translation? You mention that many of these lands have little contact with Latin, which leads me to wonder how they will be able to communicate with dacians in any language a dacian might know.

Not all the characters will know all the languages. For example, there will be a Chinese character that will eventually join the main character's party and he will know latin and do a lot of the translation from chinese to latin.

Kind of the same thing with Mayans of the Yucatan. In the beginning they won't even know the languages and the characters will have to learn the mayan language as well as teach there own language. Yes.....Rome didn't have any contact with the Mayans obviously.....this is why this is supposed to be meant as an alternative history type situation. The Dacians obviously won't know all these languages, but the people they encounter who will join them will. I don't see why this could be criticized.

Quote:

As to using modern Persian... I would certainly be severely disappointed as a reader if you made such an insult to my intelligence. I would be very careful on trying to pull off such deceptions if I were you.

I guess movies can get away with it better than books

(which sometimes makes me wonder whether I should develop this into a movie script). I would think that people wouldn't be expecting 100% historical languages since the main language will be spoken in english and not dacian or latin. I can still definitely use the older versions of these languages instead of the modern ones since it isn't as if I new the modern ones any better. I'm just kinda surprised that people will be looking for exact languages when english will be used instead of what was actually spoke (plus this is an alternative historical fantasy).

ClancyBoy · 12-13-2007, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverbackman

But should I always use dialects? I was thinking for far away civilizations like China there will be maybe a few people that speak latin but most of the encounters here will be translations from the few Chinese people that were taught latin. For the contact with the Yucatan, the party who arrives there will start out not knowing the languages of the Mayans obviously and vice versa, since there was no contact between the old world and the new world.

You should research more. Chinese history records a visit by one group of "Romans" in the Tang Dynasty, but they didn't exactly set up a consulate. (And they probably weren't really Romans because Rome was gone by that time.) There were no Latin speakers in China. All contact between the two empires was mediated by the kingdoms of Central Asia.

As to the dialects, do whatever you think feels right for any given situation.

Quote:

While I much rather have this story take place in our world, if there will be heavy criticism because of all the additional fantasy aspects to the story as well as the fictional characters and events......I might as well create a fantasy land with similar civilizations in it or something. But I would much rather it take place in this world.

I think it would be much cooler if it took place in our world, but if you want to do that I think you have a lot of reading ahead of you.

Quote:

Late Roman history never actually extended into Tang......the Tang formed in the 600s CE. Han China (ends 220 CE) was still in power during the reign of Emperor Trajan and during the time of the conquest of Dacia (around 100 CE).

Whoops, my bad. You're right, Trajan was around during the Eastern Han dynasty.

Ilasir Maroa · 12-13-2007, 07:52 PM

I think that an alternative history in the style suggest is perfectly reasonable. I would be careful however to take care that you stay accurate in the area of recorded history, insofar as is possible. There's nothing wrong with creating mythical kingdoms and creatures, but be wary of how they would affect the real timeline as opposed to your altered one.