ClancyBoy

The one thing that chafes me most about most fantasy is how self-important most of it is, and how serious the characters all are.

I can't get through most fantasy for that reason. Harry Potter is a rare exception.

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

Ilasir Maroa

Could you define self-important? I feel like I should be agreeing with you, but I can't quite make out exactly what you mean.

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dwellerofthedeep

I don't really mean to speak for Clancy here; but as far I see it, he means one of these: Fantasy often takes itself too seriously, or fantasy is pretentious or maybe he means both.

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Kane

In many fantasy stories, the world in which the characters live is serious, demanding the characters to be serious as well. Often in life or death situations, or situations where the fate of the world rests upon their shoulders, fantasy characters are rightfully serious. I think this is less an attempt to pretentious as it is simply a reflection of the world being written about. However, there is also a large amount of a more light-hearted type of fantasy. It's just that one of the biggest fantasy cliches is to lump all fantasy in to one category and make blanket derogatory statements about it, when, in fact, fantasy is hugely varied, encompassing all manners of story-telling, told in a fantastical world.

ClancyBoy

Fantasy isn't alone here. Sci-fi and thrillers suffer from this also.

I mean the high stilted language. Fantasy authors describe everything in their universe as it is was not only incredibly cool, but also tremendously important.

I just tried to get into A Wizard of Earthsea, but I just couldn't. It's like reading the goddamn Bible. LeGuin wants you to be in awe of the coolness of her world and the nobility of her characters. It's just so damn purposeful. No one makes jokes, no one criticizes, no one ever makes dumb mistakes.

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

ClancyBoy

If they were any way realistic sorts of worlds, the characters who live in them would be used to them and regard it in the way we regard nifty things in our own world.

That is, if you lived in a world where magic and monsters were commonplace and you knew a lot about them, you wouldn't think they were as incredibly neat-o as the characters in 90% of fantasy books do.

If a book about our own time were written in the high fantasy style, every car on the road would be a brand-new red Ferrari, and the characters would go on and on for pages about how awesome and powerful motorized transport is, even though it's already 100 years old and people are thoroughly used to the idea. There would never be a character who bitches about his beat-up Dodge Dart and wishes he could have a horse instead.

It has some variation, but it's not hugely varied. I can think of only a few books where magic and monsters are not treated as earth-shakingly significant. The Harry Potter books are one, and Lord of the Rings are another. There's Terry Pratchett, but I'm not sure he qualifies.

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

Ilasir Maroa

That's what I thought you meant.

Well, I'm compelled to point out that it's written like that to try and bring you into the world, because the reader doesn't start out with a large background in the world. They're setting the tone.

On the other hand, I tend to agree that they could still suceed in those goals in a more contemporary-sounding style, and one that's more friendly to the reader.

__________________
My hopeful book:
Crap! Haven't posted it anywhere yet, darn!
"Only tyranny cloaks itself in shadows. The light of justice can not be hidden."
www.theoddvillepress.com

ClancyBoy

Of course you need background, the thing is how the background is presented. If you present it as "look at the world I created it's so ancient and awesomely cool and powerful, OOooOooo!" that makes it less believable to me. It's more believable if the author isn't so obviously enraptured with his creation.

Look at Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash for an example of how to do this right. Stephenson fawns over his hero a little much for my taste (totally awesome hacker and world's greatest swordfighter, lol) but at least Hiro for all his coolness makes dumb mistakes from time to time. The first action sequence ends with him driving his car right into an empty swimming pool.

His made-up world is presented very very well. His world of highways and 'burbclaves has some pretty neat aspects to it, but he doesn't beat the coolness of it into the reader. Some parts of it are neat, some parts of it aren't, and some aspects are downright ludicrous, and he goes into all of them, presenting a very balanced and realistic view.

Tolkien does this well too. Yes the Shire is pastoral and idyllic, but that's not all he tells you about it. The Shire is also backward, ignorant and petty, full of squabbling opportunistic relatives and such. There are elements of humor there. Again, that makes it more real.

LeGuin and other fantasy writers just go on and on about how noble and wonderful their country is, how pure and powerful their main characters are, and how totally awesome they think the magic system or artifacts of power they invented are. It's a lot of "I had this great idea let me tell you all about how great my idea is I am very creative!"

I gotta say, I've consumed a lot of media in my day, and I'm not really that enthralled by powerful magic or noble quests anymore. That's fine as a backdrop, but it needs to be deeper than that for me to enjoy it.

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

Mallignamius

My biggest complaint. There's no shortage and no slowing down.

Mwuah-hahahahahaha!

I'm a bit tired of fantasy that involves saving the world, or all of humankind. Epic is nice, but it's also 99% of the market.

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Ilasir Maroa

Having experienced the wish to bombard the reader with all the cleverness of my world several times, I understand LeGuin's style and method.


But like I said before, I agree mostly with you. There's plenty of ways to present and describe the world without all that fancy language and "cool awesome history and people" stuff that I see in a lot of fantasy (and Sci-Fi). Good point.

__________________
My hopeful book:
Crap! Haven't posted it anywhere yet, darn!
"Only tyranny cloaks itself in shadows. The light of justice can not be hidden."
www.theoddvillepress.com

Kane

Clancyboy, you should try some of Steven Erickson's, "Malazan Book of the Fallen," series, or Martin's, "A Song of Ice and Fire," or even ,"The Sundering," books by Jacqueline Carey. The Summer Tree books by Guy Gavriel Kay are also good.

ClancyBoy

What makes them good?

Sorry, I have very little access to books where I am

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

WriterDude

You might want to pick up few Dragonlance book as well. The world is very detailed and all believeable, but it never goes too much into detail either. It's mostly written in a serious tone, but there are a lot of humour as well. And while most characters are serious, it's because they live there just like you and I live in the real world. But that said, there are all sorts of characters living there. Some are serious, some are funny, some are very wise, and others are just, plain stupid. There are even gully dwarves, a race commonly despised by every single other race in the entire world. And they have their own book, even!

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ClancyBoy

nonononononononononononNONONONONONONONONONONO

NONONONONONONONONONONONONO

NONO!!

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"Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons wait for you down there. Little pets they are, little little little pets. Cute little things, they say. Don't you believe it. No man ever saw them and walked away alive. You won't either. That's the final dash, flash. That's the utter clobber, cobber." --Cordwainer Smith, Norstrillia.

WriterDude

YES!

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